Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[frogwoman]

Idris2002 when I was in Odessa in 2010 everyone spoke Russian and there seemed to be more Russian flags displayed than Ukrainian. Doubt that's the case now.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Zelensky said that because he was talking to Ha'aretz, simple. He says similar stuff depending on who his audience is, tailors his message. He's good at it.

The LibDems taught him well.

 

[gosub]

Mai Lai may have been one of the most upsetting single incidents but the US focus on bodycount as a metric for how well they were doing ensured that civilians were targeted throughout the Vietnam war. Up to two million civilians died (through actions on both sides).

As much as that happened and was an atrocity, what next? Viking were partial to a bit of rape too

 

[Dogsauce]

I could foresee an intervention where foreign troops go in by invitation to help with rescue/recovery/rebuilding in places like Kyiv, but take stuff like air defences/cover with them to protect the mission. That would likely secure Kyiv and the regime, without being openly confrontational. Might make Russia decide to leave these places alone, and in doing so Ukraine could focus defences on the east.

 

[Artaxerxes]

The LibDems taught him well.

Are you calling Putin a squirrel?

 

[frogwoman]

Moldova's quite similar in that respect although there does seem to be a lot more of a 'Moldovan identity' when I was last there than before, now its clear they're not rejoining Romania any time soon. But shit loads of people watch and believe RT etc

 

[Pickman's model]

As much as that happened and was an atrocity, what next? Viking were partial to a bit of rape too

The Vikings didn't organise the phoenix program

 

[Idris2002]

Idris2002 when I was in Odessa in 2010 everyone spoke Russian and there seemed to be more Russian flags displayed than Ukrainian. Doubt that's the case now.

I don't remember any flags in Odessa when I was there in 2005.

 

[frogwoman]

 

[frogwoman]

I don't remember any flags in Odessa when I was there in 2005.

I also didnt see many but saw a few in shops etc. I admit I was there for a couple days and wasn't really looking but the Ukrainian flag was conspicuous by its absence. And everything was in Russian.

 

[maomao]

As much as that happened and was an atrocity, what next? Viking were partial to a bit of rape too

Yes, I'm saying that brutality, specifically the rape and murder of civilian populations, is a regular feature of war. It's disgusting and seemingly beyond comprehension but the Americans did it, the Germans did it, the Russians have done it before, the Japanese did it and even the British have done it.

 

[Diamond]

At the risk of someone having a go at me for discussing forces from Chechnya again, here is witness testimony re: the Bucha killings that specifically points the blame there:

 

[Flavour]

Have we had the Russian general admitting to shooting "Nazis in civilian clothing" in Mariupol? And can anyone here who speaks Russian verify that is indeed what he says?



e2a: i did a live translation using the audio function of google translate in chrome (listening to the audio on a loudspeaker with google translate active) and he does indeed say they killed 93 people

 

[teqniq]

Interesting. Zelensky has joined the dots re: Syria and other conflicts:

Zelenskyy blasts U.N. Security Council, calls for reform

The Ukrainian president addressed the body Tuesday

www.ny1.com

...Zelenskyy argued that the war in his country might have been avoided if the Security Council had properly responded to past conflicts in Syria, Somalia, Afghanistan, Yemen and Libya.

“If tyranny had at least once received such a response to the war it had reached, it would have ceased to exist and honest peace (would have) been guaranteed after it and the world would have changed for sure,” he said....

 

[JimW]

All sorts of interesting comment in this interview with a historian: ‘Suddenly, these outdated ideas are being used to justify mass murder’ Why Russia’s war against Ukraine is the logical continuation of Russian state ideology. — Meduza

In addition, as Vladimir Sharov — one of the greatest Russian writers in recent decades, in my view — put it, Russian leaders are classified in the popular consciousness not as legitimate or illegitimate, but as genuine or not genuine. A genuine czar, a true chief, a true leader, is someone who takes a country on the brink of ruin and leads it to triumph.

Let’s take the wars that are canonized in the Russian state narrative. It’s the start of the 17th century: the Poles are in Moscow, and Minin and Pozharsky form a militia and drive them out of there. Beginning of the 18th century: the Great Northern War begins with a defeat near Narva, causing Peter to transform the whole country and ultimately leads to [Russian victory in] Poltava. The start of the 19th century: Napoleon occupies Moscow — so the Russians take Paris. Hitler didn’t manage to take Moscow, but he got close. The initial months of 1941 were catastrophic — and then we were victorious.

Not qualified to judge how right he is but plenty of food for thought and some good lines:

In Latin America, during the military coup period, there was a slogan: “Send the soldiers back to the barracks!” I would suggest a new slogan: “Send the historians back to their department!”

“We lived here!”; “We’re one people!”; “This land belongs to this group and not that one!”; It’s difficult to imagine anything more damaging than the use of these kinds of arguments to solve historical problems.

 

[Spymaster]

Have we had the Russian general admitting to shooting "Nazis in civilian clothing" in Mariupol? And can anyone here who speaks Russian verify that is indeed what he says?



e2a: i did a live translation using the audio function of google translate in chrome (listening to the audio on a loudspeaker with google translate active) and he does indeed say they killed 93 people

So he's admitted to war crimes. Even if they were nazi's, executing them is a war crime.

 

[frogwoman]

Timofei Sergeitsev / Zinoviev Club

Zinoviev Club

zinovievclub.com

Zinoviev Club is back up BTW.

First rule of Zinoviev Club - don't talk about Putin negatively

 

[Pickman's model]

Timofei Sergeitsev / Zinoviev Club

Zinoviev Club

zinovievclub.com

Zinoviev Club is back up BTW.

First rule of Zinoviev Club - don't talk about Putin negatively

Second rule - don't use telegram?

 

[Pickman's model]

So he's admitted to war crimes. Even if they were nazi's, executing them is a war crime.

The master criminal always makes one fatal error...

 

[frogwoman]

Second rule - don't use telegram?

Second rule would be - Putin is fantastic

 

[Raheem]

Have we had the Russian general admitting to shooting "Nazis in civilian clothing" in Mariupol? And can anyone here who speaks Russian verify that is indeed what he says?



e2a: i did a live translation using the audio function of google translate in chrome (listening to the audio on a loudspeaker with google translate active) and he does indeed say they killed 93 people

I posted the same story from another source a couple of weeks ago. Seems to be fine to talk about openly in the Russian media, but Western media hasn't picked it up.

Минобороны РФ сообщило об уничтожении 93 дезертировавших из Мариуполя украинских боевиков - Газета.Ru | Новости

Начальник Национального центра управления обороной РФ генерал-полковник Михаил Мизинцев сообщил, что за минувшую ночь Вооруженные силы РФ ликвидировали 93 украинских боевиков, дезертировавших из Мариуполя в гражданской одежде, сообщает РИА «Новости» .

m.gazeta.ru

 

[frogwoman]

Third rule of Zinoviev Club would be 'be a demented racist' it seems going by this article on immigrant life in Germany




Given recent events and statements by other members its probably a good thing for the patriotic men of Germany that they want to avoid being called Nazis

 

[Leighsw2]

Your grasp of history is a bit shaky here. Hitler was effectively given permission to annex the Sudetenland by Chamberlain and others.

War wasn't declared on Germany until Hitler (and Stalin) invaded Poland, and both Britain and France had existing pacts with Poland promising to come to its aid in the case of an invasion.

ETA I see this has already been covered

I think you missed out the bit in between where the Germans seized the rest of Czechoslovakia in March 1939 thereby revealing the folly of Munich and the idea that you could trade the Sudetenland for 'peace in our time'. Parallels there perhaps with some in the West (and on here) who've been rushing to trade the Donbas with Putin for another illusory 'peace'?

 

[Pickman's model]

I think you missed out the bit in between where the Germans seized the rest of Czechoslovakia in March 1939 thereby revealing the folly of Munich and the idea that you could trade the Sudetenland for 'peace in our time'. Parallels there perhaps with some in the West (and on here) who've been rushing to trade the Donbas with Putin for another illusory 'peace'?

Nonetheless britain declared war over poland not czechoslovakia

 

[Idris2002]

Second rule - don't use telegram?

Send a letter instead?

 

[Leighsw2]

Nonetheless britain declared war over poland not czechoslovakia

Indeed. But I think you're missing the point.

 

[Pickman's model]

Indeed. But I think you're missing the point.

Not at all. Who are you casting in the role of next up for Putin then, if Ukraine is standing in for Czechoslovakia?

 

[strung out]

Czechia has started loading up dozens of tanks onto trains to send to Ukraine

 

[agricola]

Disappointed that theres been no sign of any Security Council proposed resolution yet to independently check what happened in Bucha. I didn’t see all the speeches but all those I did called for it.

 

[Mr Moose]

Have we had the Russian general admitting to shooting "Nazis in civilian clothing" in Mariupol? And can anyone here who speaks Russian verify that is indeed what he says?



e2a: i did a live translation using the audio function of google translate in chrome (listening to the audio on a loudspeaker with google translate active) and he does indeed say they killed 93 people

There’s a self-fulfilling prophecy at work. We have to get the Nazis. The people resisted. Conclusion, the Nazi problem was worse than we thought. Kill them all.