Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
who knows how you'll feel in a couple of weeks from now
Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24
- Thread starter kebabking
- Start date
maomao
普費斯
And yet nothing's changed except perhaps Russia's range of options has reduced further.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Massive supply and use of loitering weapons to sever Russian supply lines. I'm actually not against attacks into Russia like the one last week. Putting troops on their soil would be a red line though.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
but bombing them would be ok
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Zelensky discusses the future of Ukraine with liberal Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz:
Interesting in that he disavows an "authoritarian" option for post-war Ukraine, and seems to say that it will look more like Israel than western Europe. This is relevant to all the stuff about the role, if any, the far-right might be playing, or will play in future. A country doesn't have to be fascist, or even "authoritarian" to be able to persistently blot its copybook. Though as the cases of Russia and Israel illustrate, it certainly helps.
Interesting in that he disavows an "authoritarian" option for post-war Ukraine, and seems to say that it will look more like Israel than western Europe. This is relevant to all the stuff about the role, if any, the far-right might be playing, or will play in future. A country doesn't have to be fascist, or even "authoritarian" to be able to persistently blot its copybook. Though as the cases of Russia and Israel illustrate, it certainly helps.
What absolutely baffles me, absolutely, is how (presumably) usually normal young men can suddenly become such monsters. I mean, I cannot fathom executing a family. Or anyone. I just can't. What flips their switches. Apparently loads of them were very fucking drunk but still. I'm fairly sure I'd just refuse and shoot the fucker telling me to do it.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
A lot has changed. Firstly we're 2 weeks further into the war with all the hardships that entails both there and consequentially elsewhere, and Russian tactics against the civilian population has got immeasurably worse, or at least the reporting has, but it doesn't matter which.
strung out
💩 🤣 🍆 💦 🧐 👻 🐝 🐈⬛
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
but bombing them would be ok
Striking at military targets across the border in Russia, is absolutely no foul, imo. Any infrastructure that's supporting the invasion should be considered fair game. Sticking boots on the ground and taking territory though, is a while different ball game.
dilute micro
esse quam videri
I agree but I wonder if in an all-out war with Russia 007 troops wouldn't go across the border. Right now I wouldn't support NATO going to war. If something happens then yes. The truth of it is when Zelensky says they are fighting our war he speaks the truth.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
troops would almost certainly be put on their soil, tho, for special reconnaissance etc
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Yeah Idris2002 not defending Zelensky as a national leader should be a bit better informed but I'm not sure you can read that much into that interview.
Israel and Zionism are viewed very differently across the political spectrum from far left to (most of) the far right to how they are in the West in Russia, Moldova and probably Ukraine and other parts of the FSU. I was shocked at how pro Zionist almost everyone I met in Russia was from Putinists to leftists. Going on holiday to Israel to lie on a beach for a week is completely normal there whereas here it's mostly if you have relatives, are involved quite heavily in the Jewish community or want to make a zionist statement. Saying you want your country to be like Israel will read very differently there to here and even In Israel itself.
BDS (for example) isnt a thing there. Its quite possible that Zelensky doesn't think of bulldozing Palestinians homes when he thinks of Israel but of like a 'strong, democratic, independent well armed country defending itself' obviously this formulation is well problematic in itself but I wouldn't read from that that he wants to do a cast lead. He might not even know what that is.
Israel and Zionism are viewed very differently across the political spectrum from far left to (most of) the far right to how they are in the West in Russia, Moldova and probably Ukraine and other parts of the FSU. I was shocked at how pro Zionist almost everyone I met in Russia was from Putinists to leftists. Going on holiday to Israel to lie on a beach for a week is completely normal there whereas here it's mostly if you have relatives, are involved quite heavily in the Jewish community or want to make a zionist statement. Saying you want your country to be like Israel will read very differently there to here and even In Israel itself.
BDS (for example) isnt a thing there. Its quite possible that Zelensky doesn't think of bulldozing Palestinians homes when he thinks of Israel but of like a 'strong, democratic, independent well armed country defending itself' obviously this formulation is well problematic in itself but I wouldn't read from that that he wants to do a cast lead. He might not even know what that is.
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A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
Irradiated?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
make it magnificent
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Those ones are most likely already there and probably have been for ages. .
I mean invasion forces.
andysays
Love and solidarity
Your grasp of history is a bit shaky here. Hitler was effectively given permission to annex the Sudetenland by Chamberlain and others.
War wasn't declared on Germany until Hitler (and Stalin) invaded Poland, and both Britain and France had existing pacts with Poland promising to come to its aid in the case of an invasion.
ETA I see this has already been covered
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
If we can supply weapons but not troops, why can't we fly some Ukrainian pilots off to the US and let them operate drones under guidance/supervision of the experts? Surely Russian forces could be decimated by that and no troops anywhere near the sodding ground?
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frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I was friends a Kazakh woman who was going of to study in Israel as a mature student and had hardly given any thought to the fact that she might get some hassles as a Muslim woman. Her sister had lived and worked in Israel for a few years. This is someone very political, worked as a journalist etc. Its not a thing there. When she actually got there she was quite shocked to learn of the history of the conflict and the Nakba etc.
It's entirely possible that Zelensky might not have a clue what he's talking about when he said he wants Ukraine to be like Israel when a good portion of virtually anyone you asked would say the same thing. Again this isn't to defend him but to point out about how Israel gets discussed and the level of awareness people have of its more problematic aspects is completely different.
It's entirely possible that Zelensky might not have a clue what he's talking about when he said he wants Ukraine to be like Israel when a good portion of virtually anyone you asked would say the same thing. Again this isn't to defend him but to point out about how Israel gets discussed and the level of awareness people have of its more problematic aspects is completely different.
andysays
Love and solidarity
There were already reports of potential war crimes being reported (from memory) a couple of weeks ago (in fact I was wondering to myself if they might lead to increased intervention of some sort), but I agree that the scale and seriousness of such things being reported has got much worse since then.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
tbh loads of really bad shit happened in syria at the hands of the russians and obama laid down his red lines and nothing happened when they were crossed. i don't suppose anything now will amount to more than warm words and maybe weapons.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
two weeks ago the crimes reported were shelling of civilian areas and rumours of rape. Today we have hard evidence of civilian executions and rape.
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emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
Also of you are speaking to an Israeli newspaper it males a nice bit of PR.
andysays
Love and solidarity
Yeah, I agree.
I can 100% understand why calls for intervention are louder now than a couple of weeks ago, even though I'm not convinced such intervention will happen.
As just pointed out,
I can't read the article as it's behind a paywall but it seems fairly obvious to me that he's talking about the permanent militarisation of society because of an existential threat (and not about repressing whatever might be Ukraine's equivalent of Palestinians).
moochedit
Mr Mooched It
Ww2 (at least at the start in 1939) also predated nukes as well as nato. I completly understand why people in Ukraine may be angry with uk/us/nato for not helping them to "kick the russians out" but a nuclear war would be bad for everyone so "tearing up the rule book" would be a very risky gamble to take.
(Not a risk i would be happy with nato taking as much as i hate what putin/russia is doing in ukraine)
If a nato country invaded russia or if russia invaded a nato country ww3 is pretty much unavoidable.
But If nato or Russia invades a third country all the other side can really do is sit it out and try sanctions, etc unless they want to risk starting ww3 by directly fighting the other sides troops in that country.
teqniq
DisMembered
Thanks for this and the above explanations. It may go some way in whole or part to explaining this which I had misgivings about at the time:
In scathing speech, Zelensky pleads with Israel to prevent Russia’s ‘final solution’
Addressing lawmakers via Zoom, Ukrainian leader says Israel 'will have to live' with its decisions to withhold military aid from Kyiv and sit out Western sanctions on Moscow
www.timesofisrael.com
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
That makes a lot of sense. And it's only relatively recently that "support Israel" stopped being a default position for a lot on the western left. I remember Nell McCafferty - Ireland's Republican Marxist Lesbian Radical Feminist journalist - talking on radio in the 80s about working on a kibbutz just before the 1967 war.
The way I see it, Big Z is trying to actively court Israel with statements like that - Israel seems to have been fence-sitting a lot during this conflict. "We'll be just like you" would be good PR, and even better PR if he actually means it. Man.
This war is going to do for Ukraine what Gallipoli did for Oz and Kiwiland. Except it's happening right on their doorstep, no inside their house, and not in another hemisphere. So it's going to forge the nation, but in a way that will lead to at least a generation of rage, bitterness and hatred.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
This is very good teqniq : The Other History of the Holocaust
maomao
普費斯
Two weeks ago the Russian attack had only just culminated and there was talk of imminent chemical attacks. We now know they're taking unsustainable losses and have retreated on one front. The desire for escalation is motivated by disgust at what the Russians have done and an understandable desire to respond but they're already destroying themselves and escalation means escalation, total war spreading to more countries; it won't save lives and it won't do the dead any favours.
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