Dogsauce
I’ve got Skol but I’m not a Scholar
Reportedly they were digging trenches in radioactive soil. Comes from a sketchy source though, and some (claimed) nuclear physicist on Twitter reckons it’s bollocks.
Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24
- Thread starter kebabking
- Start date
nogojones
spelling is overrated
Ha ha. They're happy to beat the shit out of and arrest internal opposition, but brick it when someone might shoot back.
‘Refusing to kill people isn’t a crime’ The Russian National Guard is firing officers who refuse to join the war in Ukraine. — Meduza
On March 24, Pavel Chikov, a lawyer from the international human rights organization Agora, reported that 12 Russian National Guard officers from Krasnodar who were participating in military exercises in Crimea had refused to follow their commander’s orders to join the war in Ukraine. The...meduza.io
Attack dogs complaining they might have to get bitten.
A380
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Interesting change in propaganda / information tactics from Western intelligence organisations. Instead of ‘leaking’ unattributed with a nudge and a wink both ‘us’ and the mericans are having senior spooks go public with statements. Seems quite effective so far, and a far better method than the one in use by the Russians.
Combine this with the brilliant UKR’s social media and traditional media campaign and several books will need to be rewritten after this.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
It's Colin Powell again but done better
A380
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20 odd years better.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
20 years of learning from the mistakes
A380
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Not sure the information campaign was handled that badly in Iraq.
Certainly achieved the objectives set at the beginning.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I'm not talking about anything after the invasion. If the information campaign had been done well then there wouldn't have been the level of subsequent violence there was. But they famously went in without a plan for after defeating the Iraqi army, and made a series of daft decisions that prompted the insurgencies
A380
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Sorry I was talking about the information campaign/ propaganda campaign to the wider world. That seemed pretty good to me and got huge numbers of countries on board.
It’s much more difficult, that’s kind of the point, to get rid of the emotion loading and views on the rights and wrongs, when looking at the information rather than other elements of a conflict.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
The main weakness was it fundementally was based on deceit and fabrication.
The intelligence stuff coming out about Ukraine seems to have be more credible, has been vindicated by events (i.e. warning that Russia was going to invade and was not bluffing) and isn't part of a preplanned propagandor exercise.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You recall when the White House released the name of that cia agent perhaps.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
So it's your contention that western intelligence agencies can't lie in these circumstances
Not sure you're on a winner here
A380
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Why was that a weakness?
A380
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Yes, I suspect that wasn’t a happy day in Langley.
A380
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About what?
In the current campaign I want the Ukrainians to kick the Russians out of their country, for Putin’s regime to fall and for as many Russian boys to get home uninjured as possible .
Just because I can recognise an excellent propaganda campaign doesn’t mean I’m not influenced by it. If it did the advertising industry would go bust.
It’s also highly likely that those three things would also be ‘good’ things but that isn’t really what this sub thread is about.
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
The whole speech is dripping with propaganda. Or a least the report I read of it was.
One thing I noticed was a focus on Putin and this being Putin's war. Setting the stage for a normalisation of relations with Russia when he goes?
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
er - no its not. But i haven't seen anything they've come out with that seems like obvious bollocks or that's been contested by anyone (other than the Kremlin) - in the run up to the Iraq war that was very much not the case. And their assessments - Putin is surrounded by yes men and this has affected his decsion making and that the Russian military have performed poorly sound credible and are seems very much in line with all the other the other analysis and the evidence.
Obviously everything comes with a health warning - but info should not be automatically dismissed cos its from intelligence agencies - id take their word over that of the Ukrainian government (although their info has seemed fairly reliable - but rather selective) .
A380
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As opposed to what? Measured, balanced, unvarnished language like, to pick an example purely random, ‘dripping with propaganda’?
A380
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Might all be true. Hopefully it is. But that’s not the point. This isn’t ‘news’ or at least it is t primary news it’s part of a war. A part of a war that in, my amateur opinion, is being fought very well by the West.
In away it shouldn’t be surprising, having the biggest and best car industry in the world meant if you have to you can quickly have the biggest and best conventional arms ( the US in WW2) industry so why are people surprised that if you have the biggest and best advertising and marketing industry in the world (the West now) you wouldn’t also be good at propaganda?
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_Russ_
Never not Knowingly Misunderstood
I know you like playing games with other peoples posts so must point out claiming the above from:
"The intelligence stuff coming out about Ukraine seems to have be more credible"
is bollox
Dom Traynor
Tino Pai
Good to see the dehumanisation of Russians continue apace among the pro-nuke "left". It's an essential part of getting us all ready for WWIII
nogojones
spelling is overrated
We're talking about specialist paramilitary riot police here not Russians or even Russian conscripts. They sign up to smash heads, then get precious if they think their own head may get dented.
Riot police are the same the world over.
Nice to see them looking to disobey orders, but I'll not weep at their losses.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I'm not. I'm basing that on the final bit about it not being planned or a propaganda exercise
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I find it peculiar how people who normally have at least half an eye open firmly close both eyes now to a suggestion that they ought to think critically. I've pointed out above that this vp on his own bit and being badly advised is a narrative the guardian say western intelligence agencies want to push. And that being the case I thought at least one of you might have asked why, and considered the matter for a moment.
But not a bit of it.
In the run up to the Iraq war there was a very great push to persuade MPs and everyone else there were WMD in Iraq. There were perhaps nuclear weapons in Iraq. And they came unstuck not because of their actual narrative, if you recall, but because of the internet, the dodgy dossier being ripped off from someone's thesis spelling mistakes and all for example.
Parliament was misled. The UN security council was lied to. Even Colin Powell was lied to, if you believe his version of events.
Now things are different as much of what's being said is palpably in accord with what other people are saying. Which makes it all the more important imo to treat their statements with caution, because they are a huge part of the state's attempt to mould perceptions now. But where is that wariness? There's two big issues here, the one to look for that perception shaping and the other not to trust their statements in future.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Before making any attempts to seek expert opinion about this, my thought process starts along the following lines:
Red flags arise because of the use of the term 'acute radiation sickness' and because plenty of absolute bullshit propaganda involving radiation has already been used in this war. And perhaps also the number of victims described.
Acute radiation sickness wouldnt immediately ring true to me because we might expect the sort of contamination in the area to pose longer term exposure risks to health rather than anything that would manifest quite quickly in an acute manner. But there are still some limits as to the extent that I would completely and utterly dismiss such possibilities, I'd have to leave the door very slightly ajar. As I suppose there is always a chance that a far more radioactive source than typical for the zone was lurking and was accidentally stumbled upon, or that such a possibility combined with especially hapless and unlucky actions and behaviours which intensified the health threat.
A380
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Another great example of the dangers inherent in starting to believe your own propaganda and so undervaluing your opponents to a detrimental effect.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Another way to approach the broadest version of that topic is to consider that the nature and purpose of intelligence agencies means that they want links with almost everyone. But that the nature and extent of the links vary greatly, and do not in themselves provide a concrete guide as to the reliability of a particular source. Same goes for other state entities, state funding of causes that there is political or economic motivation to fund, etc. We can even chuck in some generalisations about the sort of entities that can be made use of more directly by specific intelligence entities. eg we know that businesses, ngos and journalistic roles can be used as cover because they come with plausible reasons for particular travel and interest in subjects and conflicts, and foster networks and information gathering. And there is always an obvious use for dissidents by external players. Then we can add a layer involving the sort of games where states are often aware of specific individuals who are suspected of holding such roles, and of suspicious funding links, but outside of dramatic escalation of tensions tend to prefer to observe rather than expose relevant individuals and organisations. But then we also have to consider that publicly accusing entities of such links is a classic propaganda technique, and that versions of this exist where the accusations have some truth to them, but also versions where the accusations are a disgusting smear with zero basis in fact.
Balancing acts around such themes arent trivial to perform, and those who become hypervigilant about such matters are at just as much risk of shitting the bed as those who are hopelessly naive. When you come to see the hidden hand everywhere, that murky world has managed to gain influence over you via a different path, has found a different way to stain your spirit, isolate you, narrow your worldview and fuck with your credibility. Effort must be placed into finding counterweights to balance against this so that you dont end up in paranoid limbo. Or ending up trusting the wrong sources just because they appear to align with your resulting worldview.
I do not have a simple guide for pulling off such a balancing act. But I suspect it at least involves setting a rather broad range of acceptable source credibilities. Dismiss out of hand only the very most extreme of sources, and find other ways to evaluate the substance that every other source offers, even those for which it is reasonable to attach some degree of suspicion. Do not ignore your suspicions, but do not allow them to block out the light or close down possibilities prematurely, or to limit you to what becomes a too narrow and well worn path with too much rigidity of thought.
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