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Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

It is, of course true. And we can all think of a clear example of exactly when that did happen.
Cuba you mean?
But could you imagine an anti-war movement calling for 'respect for the US's security concerns'? Which is what Stop the War did. It's not a surprise, but still - fuck them.
no I'm not with you - Stop the War called for respect for the US's security concerns?

sorry I'm not on either side here I don't think - interested in clarification
 
Cuba you mean?

no I'm not with you - Stop the War called for respect for the US's security concerns?

sorry I'm not on either side here I don't think - interested in clarification
I do mean Cuba. Cuba has the right to do what it likes, but allowing Soviet nukes in was obviously raising the temperature and risk a response.

Which is pretty much the same today for Ukraine, isn't it? Where STW (and, I suspect, a certain poster) call for respect for Russia's security concerns.
 
I do mean Cuba. Cuba has the right to do what it likes, but allowing Soviet nukes in was obviously raising the temperature and risk a response.

Which is pretty much the same today for Ukraine, isn't it? Where STW (and, I suspect, a certain poster) call for respect for Russia's security concerns.
Lack of respect for Russia's security concerns has needlessly led to thousands of Ukrainian and Russian dead.

The world is not, and never will be, what we want it to be, whatever our politics (and I'm somebody who wants to go back to the world of Saltely Gate and Grunwick's.)
 
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I do mean Cuba. Cuba has the right to do what it likes, but allowing Soviet nukes in was obviously raising the temperature and risk a response.
Yes true, but only because there were loads of nukes surrounding Russia at (similar?) distances away. That was surely raising the temperature first.
Which is pretty much the same today for Ukraine, isn't it? Where STW (and, I suspect, a certain poster) call for respect for Russia's security concerns.
In what way the same? I can understand Russia's concern if nato countries are getting closer and closer to their borders. Although nato being essentially an agreement that any country being invaded means all nato countries respond, you'd think Russia would mainly be concerned if they actually did want to invade.

Again I'm not really sure of the STW position here, so what the criticisms are.
 
well, that and the Russians invading.
What else did you think they were gonna do? These are not nice people (and neither are the neo-liberals running Ukraine, who have whipped up their population to death-wish, on the basis of a series of spurious promises.)
 
which spurious promises?
Joining the EU and NATO, as if Russia wouldn't 'object', when all the warnings were there.

I know a few Ukrainians living here, and they went from sniggering at their home country as a kind of banana republic to taking these spurious promises seriously after the 2014 coup. They thought they were going to become a consumerist democracy (not that they didn't already have their own version.) Now they must be thinking again. They dont have any more concept of how precarious everything we take for granted is than most of us do.
 
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Yes true, but only because there were loads of nukes surrounding Russia at (similar?) distances away. That was surely raising the temperature first.
yeah, the us had first strike capacity and the soviets 'needed' to match it - tho as the uk and france did too, that argument is weakened a bit. Either way, raising an already high temperature isn't great.

Certainly, for supposed anti-imperialists, demanding concern for a major imperialists security concerns is a tad hypocritical.
 
Well I'm not so you can keep on with the virtue signalling/nonsense.
Yeah, I've clearly been virtue signalling (whatever the fuck that is.)

Good luck with your nuclear war. Don't forget to kiss your arse goodbye.
 
Didn't realise you could amend your comments after you look a divvy to say something else and make it look like you won the argument.

I mean I'm sure you will tell me off.
 
“Can you trust Putin?” Zelenskiy was asked. “Trust [Putin]? Oh, no. I trust only my family,” he replied.' (Guardian quote.)

Interesting.
 
There is clearly a lab, that much was admitted by Under Secretary of State Nuland yesterday in testimony that will have delighted tinfoil hat wearers the World over.

The US has a long-standing ‘threat reduction’ programme in former Eastern Bloc countries with the aim of dismantling weapons of mass destruction. I’m not sure it’s being said that this belongs to the US rather than Ukraine. Clearly there remains some nasty stuff there that you wouldn’t want to get out. This appears to have lasted quite a long time.

I’m not answering to the veracity of any of this explanation and maybe there are also some dark deeds, but weapons of mass destruction was a shitty made up reason for a war when we did it and is again here.
Except Ukraine doesn't have a biosafety level 4 lab.

 
It seems to be the same story here (Ukrainians like the UK and Johnson).



Could have something to do with bbc news being listened to idk.

Might change soon enough when word starts getting back about the cuntery engaged in by the home office/border control, not letting in Ukrainian refugees who are wanting to come and stay with their family members based in the UK, let alone any who might not have family here but who are seeking refuge nevertheless.

The rhetoric's all very well, the reality's something else entirely.
 
Anyone else hear the Russian commentator (don't know if journalist or party hack?) on the Today programme (roughly 7.55-8.00am) this morning? Je-sus-Christ. Has to be heard to be believed.

"Russians don't bomb civilians. I have evidence"

"What's your evidence?"

"I just know"

etc. Mildly interesting view into how to twist someone's mind through propaganda (or threats).


As I say, roughly 1h 55m in.
It was reminiscent of Comical Ali.
 
The focus on thermobaric weapons feels like a big red herring. I think we should be more concerned about civilians being targeted, rather than with what particular weapons they're being targeted with.
It's relevant because some weapons are only supposed to be used 'on the battlefield,' as it were, and their use in built up residential areas against the civilian population is prohibited under the Geneva Convention, and eg thermobaric weapons (and eg white phosphorus, which was used by Israel in highly populated Gaza during Operation Cast Lead) fall under these exclusions.

Even in war, there are rules, and the use of certain weapons in certain circumstances can be war crimes, and there are rules governing how to treat PoWs, etc.

It's not supposed to be a free for all where anything goes, so the type of weapons is relevant, it's not a red herring.
 
I don’t think it’s a red herring either. One thing that happens with those weapons that they reportedly admitted yesterday to using is that if your family were in the wrong place & killed by that particular kind of bomb you’d have no bodies to bury.
 
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