Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Ax^]

that being said does bennent not classify himself as more right wing than Netanyahu

 

[frogwoman]

Israel is one of the few countries that hasn't imposed sanctions or closed its airspace yet, maybe because of its own position being very precarious in that respect.

 

[bluescreen]

I'm curious is he giving legatamacy to Russia that the ukraine is full of Nazis

when it has a jewish PM and Russian is as white nationalist as can be

WTF

You're talking about this? He offered to broker peace talks but idk.

 

[frogwoman]

that being said does bennent not classify himself as more right wing than Netanyahu

Ah shit yeah forgot about him point still stands tho, israel is much closer to russia than it was even a few years ago

 

[Ax^]

hmm not sure i'd send the Bennett an ultra nationalist to talk to another nationalist about a peace deal

it kinda wierd

Can imagine the Russian response " you are lecturing me about..."

 

[frogwoman]

hmm not sure i'd send the Bennett an ultra nationalist to talk to another nationalist about a peace deal

it kinda wierd

Can imagine the Russian response " you are lecturing me about..."

When I was in Russia I was shocked at how pro Israel many of the people were tbh, even liberal anti Putin types, many people who repeat RT talking points about Palestine etc getting less attention than Ukraine would be horrified lol. Maybe Bennett can be good for something after all. Should add that the Israel thing seemed pretty universal and didn't seem connected to their views of Putin.

 

[SpookyFrank]

hmm not sure i'd send the Bennett an ultra nationalist to talk to another nationalist about a peace deal

it kinda wierd

Idi Amin was sadly unavailable.

 

[frogwoman]

Israel's a hugely popular place to go on holiday there and the political aspects are pretty much ignored, a lot of people don't even seem aware of them.

 

[Pickman's model]

You're talking about this? He offered to broker peace talks but idk.

it's always a disappointment there are so few gordons in the bennett world

 

[Cid]

Putin and Netanyahu were pretty close tbh. A lot of Russians in Israel and Israel is a very popular holiday destination in Russia. Some elites in Israel been turning to Russia increasingly due to criticism of its policies in the USA and within the Jewish diaspora.

And need Russian support so they've got easy access to Iran/Iranian proxy stuff via Syrian airspace.

I know nothing of this, but was wondering about the relationship the other day and had a quick read.

 

[frogwoman]

Also I met a lot of liberal anti Putin Russians who liked Trump, viewing him as standing up to China etc.

 

[Aladdin]

Putin and Netanyahu were pretty close tbh. A lot of Russians in Israel and Israel is a very popular holiday destination in Russia. Some elites in Israel been turning to Russia increasingly due to criticism of its policies in the USA and within the Jewish diaspora.

Interesting that Zalenski has appealed directly to Israel for support. And previously to intervene / mediate a few weeks back

 

[Ax^]

that why it's weird why have this fellow trying to broker a peace deal


he more than likely going to congratulate Putin on how strong he is being in the face of the worlds opinion

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

my feet hurt

I hear it's possible to get out of military service if you have bone spurs in your feet. Worked for Donald Trump, got him out of serving in Vietnam.

 

[Pickman's model]

that why it's weird why have this fellow trying to broker a peace deal


he more than likely going to congratulate Putin on how strong he is being in the face of the worlds opinion

flattery will get him further than he deserves

 

[frogwoman]

that why it's weird why have this fellow trying to broker a peace deal


he more than likely going to congratulate Putin on how strong he is being in the face of the worlds opinion

Yeah probably probably gone to swap tips lol

 

[frogwoman]

that why it's weird why have this fellow trying to broker a peace deal


he more than likely going to congratulate Putin on how strong he is being in the face of the worlds opinion

'I can give you some good tips on dealing with negative publicity'

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Ukraine Russia live as Putin agrees ceasefire & gives civilians 5 hours to flee

Tensions continue to rise in the Russian invasion of Ukraine, with over a million people having fled the latter due to missiles raining down upon their cities

www.irishmirror.ie

5 hours ceasefire.

"From 10am Moscow time (7am UK time), the Russian side declares a ceasefire and the opening of humanitarian corridors to allow civilians to leave Mariupol and Volnovakha," Russian news agencies quoted the Russian defence ministry as saying."

Hmmm... Good for folks wanting to get out, but after that, surely they can then use it as justification for killing everyone left and raising the place to the ground on the basis that they allowed all the civilians to get out.

Although of course, there will be elderly, disabled other people unable to get out.

 

[Crispy]

Interesting that Zalenski has appealed directly to Israel for support. And previously to intervene / mediate a few weeks back

He's Jewish
They're nearby
They're not in NATO

 

[ska invita]

assuming Chatham House is a reputable source; LSE I would think reliable, it’s hardly a Tory / establishment university

LSE is very much an establishment university, equal to Oxbridge from what I can tell. Chatham House likewise...liberal-elitist? None of which means that anything that comes out of either institution should be ignored, but its very much of a tradition and ideology

Top Cat and R2d2 and co, far as I can see their position is basically that WAR Is BAD, it's not very nice and people should be against War. Also anyone saying anything apart from how War Is Bad is a bloodthirsty warmonger.
The Ukrainians could have stopped all this by just not resisting, the silly intransigent buggers, just let Putin do his thing and nobody needed to get hurt.
It's brilliant, it would work every time, it's failsafe, if someone invades your country all you need to do is roll over and let them get on with it, problem solved.

The inconvenient thing is that if you followed that line of thought, if these geniuses were in charge instead of the nasty imperialist warmongers, my grandparents wouldn't have been liberated from the concentration camp they were in they'd they'd have died there.
Shit john lenon song is shit.

There are puritanical pacifist who do argue that you should let people invade and then resist in a range of nonviolent noncompliant methods. We are already seeing some of that in the streets of Ukraine - people bravely standing infront of soldiers and nonviolently telling them they should go home. I'm sure we all find it very powerful see. If the Ukraine army falls then this aspect of nonviolent resistance will become even more crucial.

Then there are also people like Veterans for Peace, ex-soldiers who believe in a role for the military but strictly on a self-defence basis, and have quite clear lines about what warrants self-defence. They are against all acts of aggression but leave room for self-defence. Its a sensible position I think, and a long long way from where the US and UK armies are at, obviously.
I doubt there is anyone here who thinks Ukraine is wrong for fighting back.

Worth saying quickly I think it is a mistake to think that NATO follows the Vets for Peace model - a purely defensive military organisation. It does have a defensive aspect, and that is going to be called on now. It also has an expansionist/imperialist function.

A bigger question but not irrelevant: How can we stop war - for good. Not an easy question to answer, obvs. Historical precedent is against us, yet that is what we need to try and work towards, and the attitudes and thinking we should be fostering.

Your emphasis on your grandparents being liberated by soldiers from concentration camps puts the onus the wrong way around - not as we need soldiers to liberate us from our enemies - rather the onus is why was there a WW2 that got your grandparents there in the first place? Why was there a WW1? Who came up with concentration camps? Where did the culture of racist dehumanisation come from? And so on. Those causes of it are what we need to stop.

It comes down to anti-imperialism - at every level. Yes there's a lot of crude anti-imperialism out there that muddies these waters with weak-equivalence and whataboutery, but it doesn't stop it from being true. It was imperial competition that led to the concentration camps, and many of the Allies long history of it preceding WW2 for decades and decades was crucial in laying the seeds for it.

i hope that doesnt sound preachy - im just trying to make sense of it like everyone else

ETA: only just reading the last two pages of the thread, still catching up, some the above is redundant

 

[Gramsci]

It's totally understandable that lots of people living in places like the UK have an idea that 'Western' intervention is always imperialism & is always a Bad Thing. I do feel like this is a moment where it might be possible for some of those really comfortable ways of thinking to be shaken up. I dont think going on about iraq is really relevant.

No, i'm not saying nato troops should go in.
And i have 3 or 4 times already clarified that i don't think anyone should volunteer to join the fight either. Here i'll say it again thats 5 now.

You think the West shouldn't have sent any weapons into Ukraine, its their problem, they got invaded what a shame basically.
Its ok to disagree on this without calling each other warmongers and appeasers.

Your post was general one directed at posters like me. Using example of WW2. Which I objected to. Ive kept pretty quiet on this thread. But I'm not going to be accused of being an appeaser and say nothing. Particularly if example of Nazi Germany is used.

Nato has track record as it's been involved in several wars in recent times outside Europe. Not a particularly good one.

So it's entirely relevant to bring that up.

 

[Cid]

Hmmm... Good for folks wanting to get out, but after that, surely they can then use it as justification for killing everyone left and raising the place to the ground on the basis that they allowed all the civilians to get out.

Although of course, there will be elderly, disabled other people unable to get out.

The ceasefire turned out to be essentially meaningless anyway. Russia blamed Ukraine of course.

 

[existentialist]

As if by magic:

TBF, he looks as if he has quite a lot of experience eating pies, too

 

[mojo pixy]

Israel is one of the few countries that hasn't imposed sanctions or closed its airspace yet, maybe because of its own position being very precarious in that respect.

An awful ot of Israelis are previously Russian or Ukrainian, or have Russian or Ukrainian family. I imagine that makes the Israeli govt position awkward too, I mean along with the more obvious illegal expansion stuff. Also some rightwingers there comparing Russia in Ukraine, to Israel in with its neighbours. Self defence / buffer zone shit. So yes, I for one expect the deafening silence from that quarter to continue.

 

[frogwoman]

Putin's denazification bollocks is gonna play with some (not all) Israeli right wingers (and some left wingers) too.

 

[discokermit]

who is doing that? - ive not seen any of that on this thread.

lol! wanking over pictures of azov battallion nazis dressed as cossacks a few pages ago!
still, none as blind as them as wont see.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Finland (and Sweden) are in a very tricky position right now, aren’t they? Putin has openly threatened them with dire consequences if they attempt to join NATO.

Yet the evidence of the past fortnight (Ukraine) is that if a country isn’t a NATO member and is invaded by Russia, NATO / USA / EU won’t come to their aid by sending their own armed forces to assist, or by enforcing a no-fly zone (understandably so, not wishing to start WW3).

Seems to me this would tend to encourage rather than discourage Finland / Sweden from applying to join NATO (despite this further adding to Putin’s fears of NATO encirclement).

But to do so would go against these two Nordic countries’ long-standing position of neutrality / non-alignment, something I believe they are quite proud of, hence hosting various peace talks (Helsinki Accords etc); being seen as a neutral ‘honest broker’ with no axe to grind either way.

I was in Finland last year, and - while this probably sounds naive - I hadn’t before realised how close the border with Russia is.
You could drive from Helsinki to St Petersburg in around the same time it would take to drive from London to Newcastle.

This proximity is bound to be an ever-present reality for Finland.

Especially as there are a few elderly Finns still alive who remember the Winter & Continuation Wars during WW2, 1939 when the USSR grabbed a big chunk of Karelia in eastern Finland, which it still possesses, and 1941 when Finland was part of Barbarossa in an unsuccessful attempt to regain these lost territories. In the end they had to fight a third war in 1945 to kick out German troops from northern Finland)

I was told that one reason why Helsinki had such a modern appearance, with few old buildings, is because of USSR bombing during WW2 (“Russkies bombed our sauna”)

A university classmate from Sweden served in their army, they have national service there, iirc he was in military intelligence and they used to do lots of military exercises with conflict with Russia in mind.

 

[mojo pixy]

Putin's denazification bollocks is gonna play with some (not all) Israeli right wingers (and some left wingers) too.

It's not exactly the key point in all this but I do expect there may be some strife eventually in Tel Aviv or Haifa, as factions harden and events continue to unfold.

 

[discokermit]

No I would not as I don’t want a futile argument. i don’t need to - people are reading the same words as me

Its best not bothering.
the worst are outright scum, the best are just bourgeoise liberals with a pink veneer because they are embarrassed that their house price goes up more than their salary. gobshites and wankers.

 

[discokermit]

You seem to be stepping up to the mark to fill in for R2D2, whilst they're on a day's break, but this is such a pathetic attempt.

Please don't start trashing this thread.

Fight for Ukraine

join volunteer troops to fight for Ukraine

fightforua.org

sign up you coward.