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Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

Mrs Frank despairs at how her family back home, who are otherwise reasonable people, have become so loyal to Putin. The TV news there is a bad joke, the fake footage they've been using to drum up anti-Ukrainian sentiment is getting increasingly ridiculous but everyone buys it just the same because what else is there?

This is why I don't buy the 'Putin's lost it' angle. If he was just an unhinged nutcase he'd have invaded ten, twenty years ago. What he actually did was spend those years gaining absolute control over the media, civil society and public discourse. Because he needs that level of control to convince Russians that their Ukrainian cousins, and in many Russian families they will be literally cousins, are suddenly an existential threat. Unfortunately to maintain that control he needs to provide some kind of substrate for the heroic national narrative. A vast military apparatus that's woven into the fabric of political and even religious life (Putin's revivified orthodox church is laced through with overt worship of the Russian military) has to be given something to do, lest it become a source of dissent as it has on more than one occasion in Russian history.
on top of what you've said here i wonder what the various dubious groups he's given money to across europe will be expected to do now, presumably the moscow gold wasn't given without expecting a quid pro quo. sure they've war-gamed a range of responses to various levels of aggression and have some counter-measures to them. perhaps as blunt as turning off the gas or denying russian airspace to civilian flights. perhaps cyber-attacks. sure some of you remember this story - can't hack a typewriter
 
all countries tell proper porkies - we know iraq has wmd for example.

This is different level stuff though. Everything that's coming out of Russia at the moment is absurd.

It's reminscent of that Comical Ali interview where he insisted that there were no Americans in Baghdad when there was an Abrams tank clearly visible in shot behind him.
 
This is different level stuff though. Everything that's coming out of Russia at the moment is absurd.

It's reminscent of that Comical Ali interview where he insisted that there were no Americans in Baghdad when there was an Abrams tank clearly visible in shot behind him.
I remember pointing it out to Mrs Q at the time, twas very funny.
 
This is different level stuff though. Everything that's coming out of Russia at the moment is absurd.

It's reminscent of that Comical Ali interview where he insitsed that there were no Americans in Iraq when there was an Abrams tank clearly visible in shot behind him.
you're right, it's a different lower level. this is more your tonkin gulf or gleiwitz. don't know how you can seriously have a pop at the russians for this tho when we have boris johnson lying about everything under the sun, he's worse than comical ali, saying there are no americans in iraq from the driver's seat of an abrams tank
 
you're right, it's a different lower level. this is more your tonkin gulf or gleiwitz. don't know how you can seriously have a pop at the russians for this tho when we have boris johnson lying about everything under the sun, he's worse than comical ali, saying there are no americans in iraq from the driver's seat of an abrams tank
Battle lines are being drawn up. Some old lefties and some anarcho's supportive of Putin, rightwingers getting all Ra Ra Ra for the West, liberals crying and wringing their hands.
 
Battle lines are being drawn up. Some old lefties and some anarcho's supportive of Putin, rightwingers getting all Ra Ra Ra for the West, liberals crying and wringing their hands.
need the auld man and uncle m to pop up from behind a desk singing 'you're all a bunch of cunts'
 
Putin is good at this game, by starting with just the rebel held areas, he knows the west will not impose the full weight of sanctions on Russia, if they did, they have nothing left to threaten him with, so he may as well go ahead with a full invasion straight away.
I think what he's done up to now has been amateur. If his foot in the door and legitimacy is by entering Donetsk and Luhansk to keep the peace then it should have been plan A to begin with and done organically with a small force - then a build up to deal with the unrest. He's done it backwards. It was almost as if he was expecting something from Kyev early in the amassing of troops that made no sense and was never going to happen.
 
I think what he's done up to now has been amateur. If his foot in the door and legitimacy is by entering Donetsk and Luhansk to keep the peace then it should have been plan A to begin with and done organically with a small force - then a build up to deal with the unrest. He's done it backwards. It was almost as if he was expecting something from Kyev early in the amassing of troops that made no sense and was never going to happen.
He’s had a small force in there for more than seven years. Who do you think is planting all the ‘false flags’?

Just taking the ‘independent’ regions means he’ll completely destabilise the rest of the country without risking his troops getting bogged down in a hard to win war. Not a terrible result for him.
 
I think what he's done up to now has been amateur. If his foot in the door and legitimacy is by entering Donetsk and Luhansk to keep the peace then it should have been plan A to begin with and done organically with a small force - then a build up to deal with the unrest. He's done it backwards. It was almost as if he was expecting something from Kyev early in the amassing of troops that made no sense and was never going to happen.
perhaps you should return to the newspapers of 2014 and catch up with the rest of us
 
Boris Johnson confirmed that the “first barrage of UK economic sanctions against Russia” in response will be announced today. So he is rowing back already. Almost certainly because of difference's of opinion amongst Euro leaders.
 
I have a Romanian friend who lives in Bucharest. He has told me that the position of the Romanian government is to be the lapdog of NATO, but the position of the people is different. No one wants war and people wish a diplomatic solution was possible. There are some who are pro-war but they are in a minority. Neither of us are on either side when it comes to nation states/ruling classes.
 
He’s had a small force in there for more than seven years. Who do you think is planting all the ‘false flags’?

Just taking the ‘independent’ regions means he’ll completely destabilise the rest of the country without risking his troops getting bogged down in a hard to win war. Not a terrible result for him.
They've been secret and undercover and denied by the Kremlin. This is different. This is the Russian military wearing their flag and unit identification.

To do it properly he would have sent in a small force that just couldn't manage to get the job done and thus would require him to send in more troops. That's how you play this. What he did instead was strange and made no sense.
 
They've been secret and undercover and denied by the Kremlin. This is different. This is the Russian military wearing their flag and unit identification.

To do it properly he would have sent in a small force that just couldn't manage to get the job done and thus would require him to send in more troops. That's how you play this. What he did instead was strange and made no sense.
to you
 
I do like Martin Wright's idea of people squatting the homes of Russian oligarchs in this country which would no doubt reveal the class solidarity between certain sections of the Russian and British ruling classes. But it wouldn't surprise me if the likes of Johnson have their friends in the far-right Ukrainian government aswell.
 
Boris Johnson confirmed that the “first barrage of UK economic sanctions against Russia” in response will be announced today. So he is rowing back already. Almost certainly because of difference's of opinion amongst Euro leaders.

What's he rowing back on?

Haven't seen the news yet.
 
He threatened overwhelming sanctions and has called this mornings events an invasion but is now looking at introducing incremental sanctions initially.

Ah, ok. Well sanctions are always issued incrementally. You don't hit them with the hardest stuff first. It'll start with relatively small stuff, individual asset freezes, banking limits, maybe trade embargos on certain things, then work up to bigger things if they don't respond favourably. The problem with sanctions is that they'll hurt everyone, not just Russia, so going at it bit by bit makes sense.
 
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