Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Dystopiary]

Putin can't have expected Zelenskyy to have become a kind of hero around the world.
A few days ago loads of people outside Eastern Europe hadn't heard of him.
And then he showed he would stay and fight for his country and not leave his people behind.
He's become suddenly massively popular internationally.
He's got, according to various sources, 90% rating at home.
There've been stories and pictures and videos of him all over social media, memes contrasting* him very favourably to Putin - hero vs coward stuff.
Comments like, oh isn't he brave/lovely/funny/capable/handsome etc, and he seems to be seen too as very human.
Someone said several posts ago that Putin isn't a "hearts and minds kinda guy." Quite.
Blofeld can't have seen this coming.






eta *contrasting really, not comparing

 

[andysays]

From the Guardian

Polish nationalists attempt to attack African, Middle Eastern students fleeing Ukraine

Dozens of Polish nationalists gathered on Tuesday evening near the train station in Przemyśl, where refugees from Middle East and Africa fleeing the war in Ukraine are being sheltered, and attempted to attack them. The attackers, linked to the local football team’s ‘’hooligans,’’ approached groups of African and Middle Eastern students, who have just arrived in Poland from cities in Ukraine that have been invaded by the Russians, and harassed them, shouting slogans and anti-immigrant chants.

‘’Around 7 pm, these men started to shout and yell against groups of African and Middle Eastern refugees who were outside the train station,’’ two Polish journalists from the press agency OKO, who first reported the incident, told me. ‘’They yelled at them: ‘Go back to the train station! Go back to your country!’’

Polish Police reacted by chasing some of the nationalists and dispersing the crowd.

More in a similar vein

Nigerian student in Ukraine: 'They said black people should walk'​

 

[ska invita]

Knowing that you don’t know is certainly a preferable place to be than pretending that you do know or suddenly you’re thinking you’re an expert in international diplomacy and the latest weaponry cos you read an article in the Guardian written by a chap with a Russian looking name, looked up thermobaric bombs on Wiki and played Call Of Duty Modern Warfare on hard.

I think the conversation has been constructive here. By talking we all learn. The era of aggressive arrogant shouting men saying I Know Best has greatly reduced. Of course we all have our perspectives.

Even posting snuff footage from Twitter has been limited.

Im very thankful to everyone on here.

 

[Supine]

So an assassination team was terminated in Ukraine while on a mission to kill Zelenskyy. It can only be a matter of time surely. Putin will really want him gone

 

[Spymaster]

More in a similar vein

Nigerian student in Ukraine: 'They said black people should walk'​

I was going to post this. It needs to be discussed but keeps getting ignored. I don’t think it’s any secret that attitudes of many towards PoC in Eastern Europe aren’t what they could be but this is quite serious isn’t it? The Polish thing could possibly be put down to far right scumbags but the multiple reports from black people trying to flee Ukraine would suggest that it’s an institutional issue that wouldn’t be tolerated elsewhere in Europe.

With the usual caveats (#notallUkrainians) this has definitely affected the way I feel about the country and I’m thinking of cancelling aforementioned plans to visit after the war.

 

[Aladdin]

WW3 would ensue.

Not if the sniper is one of his own. As in..Russian

 

[Pickman's model]

I wonder if you could just shoot the cunt. Get the best snipers in the world, get them in town…

To repeat - there is no guarantee the next man in would be more pacific, it's really stupid to think that'd be the case.

 

[stdP]

Not if the sniper is one of his own. As in..Russian

...but the chance of such an event being attributed to a Russian if it occurred...? Zero. It'll be a ukranian jewish nazi/gay NATO lizard plot and used to foment further belligerence for as long as the regime remains intact.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not if the sniper is one of his own. As in..Russian

I'm not persuaded you've given this the thought it deserves

 

[bimble]

Everyone’s an expert again suddenly

 

[andysays]

I was going to post this. It needs to be discussed but keeps getting ignored. I don’t think it’s any secret that attitudes of many towards PoC in Eastern Europe aren’t what they could be but this is quite serious isn’t it? The Polish thing could possibly be put down to far right scumbags but the multiple reports from black people trying to flee Ukraine would suggest that it’s an institutional issue that wouldn’t be tolerated elsewhere in Europe.

With the usual caveats (#notallUkrainians) this has definitely affected the way I feel about the country and I’m thinking of cancelling aforementioned plans to visit after the war.

Yeah, I read it yesterday and wasn't sure about posting it here until I saw the story RD2003 linked to.

I don't think it's altogether surprising, unfortunately, or that it should affect the overall way we feel about the country or the invasion, but it's a part of the picture which we should all be aware of.

I'm not sure what more to say at this stage

 

[Carl Steele]

I was going to post this. It needs to be discussed but keeps getting ignored. I don’t think it’s any secret that attitudes of many towards PoC in Eastern Europe aren’t what they could be but this is quite serious isn’t it? The Polish thing could possibly be put down to far right scumbags but the multiple reports from black people trying to flee Ukraine would suggest that it’s an institutional issue that wouldn’t be tolerated elsewhere in Europe.

With the usual caveats (#notallUkrainians) this has definitely affected the way I feel about the country and I’m thinking of cancelling aforementioned plans to visit after the war.

I lived for a year in Poland a few years back and racism is pervasive - not necessarily as vicious as what's happening now but still enough to turn the stomach, teenagers talking about the need to build a wall around Africa, educated middle-class people explaining why South African apartheid was a good thing, hatred of "gypsies" is taken for granted. Of course there are Poles who are not racist but you have to look for them, even in Warsaw. Doesn't sound like Ukraine is any different, and like you it affects how I feel about the country - (caveat, does not affect my opposition to the invasion).

 

[Kaka Tim]

I think - not for the first time - the capability of the Russian military has been overestimated - especially by Putin. Im guessing corruption, an authoritarian top down regime a lack of accountability is a major factor here - the guiding principle of putins russia seems to be pursuit of power and wealth and sucking up to vlad. Many people will be dipping their beak in the supply and procurement process at all levels from the grunts to the generals - and then handing in fraudulent reports and inventories.

 

[Spymaster]

To repeat - there is no guarantee the next man in would be more pacific, it's really stupid to think that'd be the case.

What it would do is give the next bloke a chance to get out of this (Ukraine misadventure) without losing face. It must be becoming evident to the Russian ruling class that whatever happens in Ukraine now, Russia loses.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Looks like the plan isn't going to be to just surround and put cities under siege, or certainly not in the case of Kharkiv, because according to Ukraine's security services, Russian airborne troops landed in the city around 3am and started fighting with Ukrainian troops.

In other news, four Russian warships are now not going to enter the Black Sea, because of Turkey restricting movement, three of which are not registered at Black Sea ports, so are not allowed in, the other one could have made the journey home, but I guess Russia didn't fancy the idea of it not being allowed to leave again.

 

[Pickman's model]

What it would do is give the next bloke a chance to get out of this (Ukraine misadventure) without losing face. By now it must be becoming evident to the Russian ruling class that whatever happens in Ukraine now, Russia loses.

Grasping at straws, spy.

 

[emanymton]

View attachment 312472

That was before they invaded. I'm an expert in military strategy now.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Like stuff about plasters.

That was before they invaded. I'm an expert in military strategy now.

I have a thousand hours or more in RTS and TBS games, I got this.


Have we added -devmode to the .exe?

 

[brogdale]

Grasping at straws, spy.

Cue defenders of the Great Man theory...

 

[Pickman's model]

Cue defenders of the Great Man theory..

Spy is a much greater man than Vladimir Putin

 

[chilango]

Any danger that Putin going on about "fascists" will cast the actual fascists in a 'good light' for your average Ukrainian resisting the invasion and thus strengthen them?

 

[Pickman's model]

Any danger that Putin going on about "fascists" will cast the actual fascists in a 'good light' for your average Ukrainian resisting the invasion and thus strengthen them?

There's always a chance I suppose but whether Ukrainians give any actual credence to Putin's pronouncements is I suggest unlikely

 

[RD2003]

I lived for a year in Poland a few years back and racism is pervasive - not necessarily as vicious as what's happening now but still enough to turn the stomach, teenagers talking about the need to build a wall around Africa, educated middle-class people explaining why South African apartheid was a good thing, hatred of "gypsies" is taken for granted. Of course there are Poles who are not racist but you have to look for them, even in Warsaw. Doesn't sound like Ukraine is any different, and like you it affects how I feel about the country - (caveat, does not affect my opposition to the invasion).

In my 20s, at the end of the Perestroika period and after, I spent prolonged periods in Russia, as have others on here, and also Ukraine and Poland. I'd say that racism is off the scale in the region compared to what we're used to here now. In Russia, in the absence of the internationalist rhetoric of the Communist regime, which did have an effect however sincere or not, and with the nationalist resurgence, I can only suspect it's deepened. No idea about Ukraine and Poland.

As a personal anecdote, I'd swapped addresses with an African student I'd met on the train over on one trip. I suggested to my Russian girlfriend that we have him round for a drink and a bite to eat sometime. She expressed horror. 'What would my neighbours say if they saw a negro knocking at my door?' This was somebody who lived in a lowly Moscow 'Khruskhovka' block-cheap housing thrown up to combat the housing crisis in the decades after WW2. If she were alive today (drug overdose a few years after I'd departed, so I heard) she'd almost certainly be among those on the streets protesting the war.

I've never heard as many Auschwitz jokes as I heard in Poland, and from the kind of people you'd expect to be standard liberal-left in the West.

 

[discokermit]

Dunno how legit this is. greeks being attacked in mariupol, Greek In Mariupol: "The Fascist Ukrainians Would Kill Me, They Don't Let Us Leave The City" (VIDEO) — Greek City Times

 

[brogdale]

Any danger that Putin going on about "fascists" will cast the actual fascists in a 'good light' for your average Ukrainian resisting the invasion and thus strengthen them?

Got to be a very real danger of organised, fash units fighting under their flags embedding (mythological?) victories and triumphs that persist after the conflict. Though a lot will depend on the outcome, I suppose.

 

[Pickman's model]

Got to be a very real danger of organised, fash units fighting under their flags embedding (mythological?) victories and triumphs that persist after the conflict. Though a lot will depend on the outcome, I suppose.

And them surviving

 

[bimble]

This website seems good for getting an idea about what people in Russia are being told about what’s going on: Russian troops welcomed with flags in Ukraine’s Melitopol
Some bits:

 

[Idris2002]

In my 20s, at the end of the Perestroika period and after, I spent prolonged periods in Russia, as have others on here, and also Ukraine and Poland. I'd say that racism is off the scale in the region compared to what we're used to here now. In Russia, in the absence of the internationalist rhetoric of the Communist regime, which did have an effect however sincere or not, and with the nationalist resurgence, I can only suspect it's deepened. No idea about Ukraine and Poland.

As a personal anecdote, I'd swapped addresses with an African student I'd met on the train over on one trip. I suggested to my Russian girlfriend that we have him round for a drink and a bite to eat sometime. She expressed horror. 'What would my neighbours say if they saw a negro knocking at my door?' This was somebody who lived in a lowly Moscow 'Khruskhovka' block-cheap housing thrown up to combat the housing crisis in the decades after WW2. If she were alive today (drug overdose a few years after I'd departed, so I heard) she'd almost certainly be among those on the streets protesting the war.

I've never heard as many Auschwitz jokes as I heard in Poland, and from the kind of people you'd expect to be standard liberal-left in the West.

Yes. E.g. when I was flat-hunting in St. Petersburg I met an obvioulsy aspirational western-oriented couple . . . the human barbie doll who was the wife in this relationship said to me "how can you go to Africa? aren't they all cannibals?"

 

[LDC]

Dunno how legit this is. greeks being attacked in mariupol, Greek In Mariupol: "The Fascist Ukrainians Would Kill Me, They Don't Let Us Leave The City" (VIDEO) — Greek City Times

Then put in in the right rumor thread ffs discokermit

 

[discokermit]

people noticing the racism,