Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[ska invita]

It's Russia's war. No one in Europe wanted this fucking war.

Ok.
So if Trump withdraws the weapons pipeline is irrelevant because it's Russia's war.
If Germany cut their arms budget it makes no difference because it's Russia's war.
Starmer not supplying missiles makes no difference because it's Russia's war.

 

[Elpenor]

It's Russia's war. No one in Europe wanted this fucking war.

Russia is in Europe

 

[ska invita]

Russia is in Europe

Not anymore tbf

 

[Pickman's model]

Russia is in Europe

Do you know, I was about to point that out too

 

[Pickman's model]

Not anymore tbf

All of russia west of the urals is in europe

 

[ska invita]

Europe and USA didn't want a war but they did want to "micromanage" Ukraine elections and fight a covert war to kick Russian influence out of Ukraine. It's not like this came out of nowhere.

 

[ska invita]

All of russia west of the urals is in europe

When they're back in the Eurovision song contest then I'll take your point

 

[Pickman's model]

When they're back in the Eurovision song contest then I'll take your point

The zionist entity competes in the ev, so it's not really a reliable guide to who's European

 

[Elpenor]

Not anymore tbf

Europe seems a flexible concept, apparently the UK is not part of Europe except when it is, as the EU seems to be analogous to Europe for some, which seems unfair to the Norwegians, Swiss and others

 

[ska invita]

I meant Europe politically of course.... I can't imagine how many decades before that changes

 

[MickiQ]

Optimist views in the guardian.

‘They will just die uselessly’: Ukrainians ready for North Korean troops joining Russia’s war

Soldiers holding chunk of enemy territory in Kursk have been learning Korean phrases and are largely unconcerned by threat from reinforcements

www.theguardian.com

I can't imagine any NK troops are going to be all that highly motivated myself, sent by a tyrant to die in somebody else's war thousands of miles away.

 

[TopCat]

Europe and USA didn't want a war but they did want to "micromanage" Ukraine elections and fight a covert war to kick Russian influence out of Ukraine. It's not like this came out of nowhere.

The US wanted an opportunity to test and degrade a long time adversary without risk to US soldiers.

 

[Chz]

Europe and USA didn't want a war but they did want to "micromanage" Ukraine elections and fight a covert war to kick Russian influence out of Ukraine. It's not like this came out of nowhere.

So you're saying they interfered to stop Russia's interference. Sounds a lot better than invading to me.

 

[Pickman's model]

So you're saying they interfered to stop Russia's interference. Sounds a lot better than invading to me.

After all, it's not your land they're privatising

 

[Chz]

After all, it's not your land they're privatising

Is that what Russia calls it?

 

[Pickman's model]

Is that what Russia calls it?

No, it's what the Ukrainians call it eg https://archive.ph/TBuVR and this War and Theft: The Takeover of Ukraine’s Agricultural Land - Ukraine which I've posted before

 

[Chz]

No, it's what the Ukrainians call it eg https://archive.ph/TBuVR and this War and Theft: The Takeover of Ukraine’s Agricultural Land - Ukraine which I've posted before

Very, very different from the Russian oligarchs who will inherit everything that ends up behind the new border, yes? Going by those links, it was fine in Ukraine until Russia invaded and they needed cash. So who's to blame there?

Despite it being in those links, you tend to ignore just how much of it was controlled by Ukrainian oligarchs, who were very much capitalists in it for thrmselves. So plus ça change, oui ?

 

[Pickman's model]

Very, very different from the Russian oligarchs who will inherit everything that ends up behind the new border, yes? Going by those links, it was fine in Ukraine until Russia invaded and they needed cash. So who's to blame there?

Despite it being in those links, you tend to ignore just how much of it was controlled by Ukrainian oligarchs, who were very much capitalists in it for thrmselves. So plus ça change, oui ?

Excellent whataboutery but, what was fine in Ukraine until the Russian invasion? The corruption?

 

[Chz]

Excellent whataboutery but, what was fine in Ukraine until the Russian invasion? The corruption?

Well, exactly. While in an ideal world, Western corporations don't own half your shit it's not any worse than it already was. And it's only happened that way because they've been invaded and war isn't cheap. It was that or give up, and the Ukrainians really didn't want to do that.

I, personally, would love it if we just gave them shit for free without strings attached. But no one's voted me in. Yet.

 

[Ax^]

Europe and USA didn't want a war but they did want to "micromanage" Ukraine elections and fight a covert war to kick Russian influence out of Ukraine. It's not like this came out of nowhere.

and Russia wants to more absorb it in the motherland again and take away the idea of Ukrainian nationality and statehood which one would you opt for ?

 

[Pickman's model]

Well, exactly. While in an ideal world, Western corporations don't own half your shit it's not any worse than it already was. And it's only happened that way because they've been invaded and war isn't cheap. It was that or give up, and the Ukrainians really didn't want to do that.

I, personally, would love it if we just gave them shit for free without strings attached. But no one's voted me in. Yet.

No, it's happened that way because of deliberate decisions to open up the Ukrainian market, to let no crisis go to waste. It's not like there's a law of nature that says this happens in return for western aid. It's a political decision.

 

[Pickman's model]

not sure Russia has want to kick it own influence on it od Ukraine more absorb it in the motherland again

Could you rearrange those words to form a coherent sentence?

 

[Ax^]

Could you rearrange those words to form a coherent sentence?

fuck off Pickman's

 

[Pickman's model]

fuck off Pickman's

That's a no then

 

[Ax^]

refers you back to post #33,713 HTH

 

[editor]

Europe and USA didn't want a war but they did want to "micromanage" Ukraine elections and fight a covert war to kick Russian influence out of Ukraine. It's not like this came out of nowhere.

More importantly, what did the Ukrainian people want?

Ukrainians’ Unwavering Path Toward the EU

The steadfast support for European integration among Ukrainians is rooted in a perception of the EU as a community of shared democratic principles. The union should leverage its democratic appeal to solidify its role as a catalyst for change beyond its borders.

carnegieendowment.org

 

[Pickman's model]

It's hard to see how any meaningful vote on the future of ukraine can take place when millions of Ukrainians have fled to avoid war and conscription while millions more live under Russian rule. I don't suppose zelensky would allow emigrés a vote when they're evading their conscription

 

[emanymton]

Europe seems a flexible concept, apparently the UK is not part of Europe except when it is, as the EU seems to be analogous to Europe for some, which seems unfair to the Norwegians, Swiss and others

Best not to even think about Eurovision.

 

[Chz]

It's hard to see how any meaningful vote on the future of ukraine can take place when millions of Ukrainians have fled to avoid war and conscription while millions more live under Russian rule. I don't suppose zelensky would allow emigrés a vote when they're evading their conscription

You don't think the people that actually live there are meaningful?
Yes I'm being facetious and I get what you're saying, but I also don't see any path to such a vote not being considered legitimate by the international community.

 

[The39thStep]

Best not to even think about Eurovision.

Cant we just put the genocide aside for one minute and enjoy a night of Eurovision that includes Israel ?