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Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

ska invita said:
The Russian demands are overegged but ultimately boil down to recognising the annexed territories they occupy.
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Yep, they are indeed demanding that the world recognise that they rightfully own the territories they seized in an unprovoked war of conquest. Doesn't sound like a recipe for lasting peace to me
 
Let's say for the sake of argument the Russian army withdraws to the 2013 borders. Ukraine still doesn't have the men to pacify the east. As soon as major operations are over the Ukrainian Army would dump conscripts. How do people think that order and harmony are going to be restored in areas controlled by moscow for more than 10 years? It'll be horrible.
 
Pickman's model said:
Let's say for the sake of argument the Russian army withdraws to the 2013 borders. Ukraine still doesn't have the men to pacify the east. As soon as major operations are over the Ukrainian Army would dump conscripts. How do people think that order and harmony are going to be restored in areas controlled by moscow for more than 10 years? It'll be horrible.
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After 1945, how did they restore order and harmony in areas controlled by berlin for more than 10 years?
 
Yossarian said:
Yep, they are indeed demanding that the world recognise that they rightfully own the territories they seized in an unprovoked war of conquest. Doesn't sound like a recipe for lasting peace to me
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Even the Mexicans recognize that, New Mexico, California and other territories seized in a war of conquest in 1848 from Mexico the previous "rightful" owner are now constituent states of the USA. Political entities have always behaved in this way. Sometimes it works, sometimes it leads to lasting peace; sometimes it doesn't.
 
Pickman's model said:
Let's say for the sake of argument the Russian army withdraws to the 2013 borders. Ukraine still doesn't have the men to pacify the east. As soon as major operations are over the Ukrainian Army would dump conscripts. How do people think that order and harmony are going to be restored in areas controlled by moscow for more than 10 years? It'll be horrible.
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far too subtle a consideration for this thread... support for ukraine continuing the war ad infinitum on this thread is driven by a sense of understandable injustice...realities of the situation are just inconveniences wished away
 
tim said:
Even the Mexicans recognize that, New Mexico, California and other territories seized in a war of conquest in 1848 from Mexico the previous "rightful" owner are now constituent states of the USA. Political entities have always behaved in this way. Sometimes it works, sometimes it leads to lasting peace; sometimes it doesn't.
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Well yeah, if we're looking at 19th-century genocidal "Manifest Destiny" American expansionism as an example, Putin is definitely on the right track here
 
ska invita said:
I dont know what you're so upset about, its a serious question. Have a go at answering it.
Theres a "ten-point plan" Zelensky has put on the table and I'm asking anyone prepared to answer how "serious" or "achievable" this plan is. The Russian demands are overegged but ultimately boil down to recognising the annexed territories they occupy.

Ukraine today (as opposed to the early days of the war) now has very specific demands, including Russia giving up Crimea. At the start of the war it was reported that a peace deal including additional loss of territory (Crimea already considered gone) was on the cards. It is also reported that it was our very own military genius "Bo Jo" who played a key role in spiking that accord.

Now this weekend there is a yet another Ukrainian "peace conference", actually a war escalation conference, the attempt of which is to cement these (to my eye clearly unachievable) goals including retaking Crimea. Despite Zelensky's attempted blackmailing (posted upthread) Biden isn't going to it as it is basically a waste of everyone's time beyond symbolism.

The Guardian reporting has this choice comment: " While this is not seen as advancing peace in itself, it is designed to “reduce the space for any unhelpful initiatives”, say those with knowledge of the conference. "

My position is one of realism, something that used to be considered essential in war, to avoid exactly what is happening: endless extension of a conflict with no realistic end-game, to achieve no material gain at the price of ever more murderous killing and destruction
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Demands, Because the victim of violence is the one making demands.

Your language casts Ukraine as the instigater and perpetrator of the war instead of Russia. It makes them the aggressor and Russia the wonged parry. It is victim blaming at the extreme

This thread is dead, completely taken over by a buch of freaks who cheer at every dead Ukrainian.
 
emanymton said:
Demands, Because the victim of violence is the one making demands.

Your language casts Ukraine as the instigater and perpetrator of the war instead of Russia. It makes them the aggressor and Russia the wonged parry. It is victim blaming at the extreme

This thread is dead, completely taken over by a buch of freaks who cheer at every dead Ukrainian.
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I don’t think the thread is dead. But it would be nice for the Putinists to be given their own one, which could then be put on ignore.
 
the worse ukraine does, the more shrill they become, blaming posters here for the fact reality doesn't match up to the fiction they have been led to believe.
 
Pickman's model said:
I've a fair notion you'd despise anyone in kyiv if they suggested they might settle for less than the restoration of 2013 borders. It's that maximalist position which fuels the war, be it putin wanting obeisance from kyiv or zelensky wanting everything as it was before the seizure of land in 2014. Few posters on this thread are calling for peace tbh
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Agreed, but the difference is in the motivation for each position.

The substantive pro-Ukraine position of most reasonable people is driven by the desire not to see the Putin regime benefit from an imperialist land-grab, typified by the strategic targeting of civilians and mass war crimes.

The pro-Russia team, on the other hand, see this as Russia v "The West"/NATO, who they hate so much that they're prepared to overlook some of the most depraved and blatant belligerence imaginable, in their desire to see their perceived adversaries given a bloody nose by a regime which, outside of this conflict, stands for everything they otherwise purport to despise.

It's classic "my enemy's, enemy" stuff, but taken to such an absurd extreme that, even on these boards where there's no shortage of posters critical of western foreign policy, most others have stepped away from.
 
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tim said:
Even the Mexicans recognize that, New Mexico, California and other territories seized in a war of conquest in 1848 from Mexico the previous "rightful" owner are now constituent states of the USA. Political entities have always behaved in this way. Sometimes it works, sometimes it leads to lasting peace; sometimes it doesn't.
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There's going to be representatives from around 90 countries at the conference in Switzerland this weekend, I would definitely be interested in seeing the reaction if any country - I'm thinking Bukele from El Salvador is the most likely candidate - put forward the "Russia is America, Ukraine is Mexico, the Donbas is California, so suck it up" argument
 
This is a good read on order and harmony after 1945 btw

"The end of the Second World War saw a terrible explosion of violence across Europe. Prisoners murdered jailers. Soldiers visited atrocities on civilians. Resistance fighters killed and pilloried collaborators. Ethnic cleansing, civil war, rape and murder were rife in the days, months and years after hostilities ended."

1718449544760.png
 

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A second summit is envisaged. Volodymyr Zelenskiy’s chief of staff Andriy Yermak said on Tuesday that Kyiv hoped Russia would attend and receive a “joint plan” presented by the other attendees.
 
The39thStep said:
This is a good read on order and harmony after 1945 btw

"The end of the Second World War saw a terrible explosion of violence across Europe. Prisoners murdered jailers. Soldiers visited atrocities on civilians. Resistance fighters killed and pilloried collaborators. Ethnic cleansing, civil war, rape and murder were rife in the days, months and years after hostilities ended."

View attachment 429060
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I've been meaning to get hold of that for a few years.
 
TopCat said:
A second summit is envisaged. Volodymyr Zelenskiy’s chief of staff Andriy Yermak said on Tuesday that Kyiv hoped Russia would attend and receive a “joint plan” presented by the other attendees.
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the attendees are a bit interesting. no russia, no china, no biden, no modi, brazil sending their ambassador and australia sending the minister for the national disability scheme because the prime minister is meeting li qiang of china.
i think this one will be a damp squib and the second one won't happen.
 
The39thStep said:
This is a good read on order and harmony after 1945 btw

"The end of the Second World War saw a terrible explosion of violence across Europe. Prisoners murdered jailers. Soldiers visited atrocities on civilians. Resistance fighters killed and pilloried collaborators. Ethnic cleansing, civil war, rape and murder were rife in the days, months and years after hostilities ended."

View attachment 429060
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Looks like a good read. Does anybody in it argue that the end of the occupation was worse than the alternative?
 
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