Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Chz]

Not entirely convinced about that tbh, Russia's just spent the last three years rebuilding its economy around war production and now has a large veteran army as opposed to a large inept one. The temptation could easily be there to start another war to stave off economic problems.

The Russian war economy is fine at making guns and bombs and rockets. And even the simpler drones. But they suck at making their own electronics. They have fewer radars, fewer AA systems, fewer helicopters and basically less of everything over a certain tech level now because they can't scale up production of them. And because they can't scale up, they're not getting economies of scale out of them either so what they can turn out, like the infamous T-14, is expensive. There's also a wavering question about the effectiveness of what they do have. A few S-400 batteries were recently destroyed by HIMARS - a threat they're specifically designed to counter. Though I personally lean towards them not being able to train people properly rather than the kit being crap. Because the Ukrainians use a lot of ex-Soviet stuff and seem to have pretty good results out of it. And if that is the case, then that's the level of "veteran" you're dealing with.

 

[The39thStep]

Both economies face challenges



Every Dollar Counts. To Pay for the War, Ukraine Embraces Privatisation

https://archive.ph/Zsxb4

 

[TopCat]

Both economies face challenges



Every Dollar Counts. To Pay for the War, Ukraine Embraces Privatisation

https://archive.ph/Zsxb4

Ukrainian privatisation efforts in the past, the first wave, were enthusiastic but beset with accusations of systematic looting.

This looks like the leftovers.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Recent survey comparing US and Euro views re Russian invasion. Usual issues re surveys apply ie ask the right question to get the right answer/sample size and also the three countries in Europe that are polled are Western not those next to Russia.

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I wonder what the stats would be like without Germany, which is pacifist for obvious reasons. There is a clear majority in favour in this country.

Ukraine war two years on – the view from Western Europe and the US | YouGov

Attitudes remain largely the same as they were at the time of the first anniversary of the invasion

yougov.co.uk

 

[The39thStep]

I wonder what the stats would be like without Germany, which is pacifist for obvious reasons. There is a clear majority in favour in this country.

Ukraine war two years on – the view from Western Europe and the US | YouGov

Attitudes remain largely the same as they were at the time of the first anniversary of the invasion

yougov.co.uk

Is this the same pacifist Germany who are Europe's largest supply of weapons and equipment to Ukraine or another Germany?

 

[sleaterkinney]

Is this the same pacifist Germany who are Europe's largest supply of weapons and equipment to Ukraine or another Germany?

I was speaking about the German people, the ones in your survey.

 

[The39thStep]

I was speaking about the German people, the ones in your survey.

The ones in the survey whose government is the biggest provider of military aid to Ukraine?

 

[sleaterkinney]

The ones in the survey whose government is the biggest provider of military aid to Ukraine?

tbf, the UK would be if it had any weapons to give or built anything themselves.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

gotta love this

 

[Pickman's model]

tbf, the UK would be if it had any weapons to give or built anything themselves.

Do you find ignorance bliss?

 

[Yossarian]

Happy Groundhog Day

Putin offers truce if Ukraine exits Russian-claimed areas and drops NATO bid. Kyiv rejects it

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy rejected what he called an ultimatum by Putin.

apnews.com

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Happy Groundhog Day

Putin offers truce if Ukraine exits Russian-claimed areas and drops NATO bid. Kyiv rejects it

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy rejected what he called an ultimatum by Putin.

apnews.com

if Kyiv started withdrawing troops from the four regions annexed by Moscow in 2022

- regions not fully occupied by Russia's troops, he seriously expects Kyiv to hand over land that has not been taken? That's his offer? Deluded cunt.

 

[editor]

- regions not fully occupied by Russia's troops, he seriously expects Kyiv to hand over land that has not been taken? That's his offer? Deluded cunt.

Bloody NATO.

 

[Rob Ray]

NATO membership aside, even the most ardent Just Make A Deal type must see the problem with an offer of "give up your defensive positions for negotiations, where I'll tell you you have to disarm and trust me that we won't try this again when you have no weapons."

 

[kebabking]

NATO membership aside, even the most ardent Just Make A Deal type must see the problem with an offer of "give up your defensive positions for negotiations, where I'll tell you you have to disarm and trust me that we won't try this again when you have no weapons."

I think they might quibble with the word problem....

 

[Dogsauce]

Also requires all western sanctions lifted, and this is all just so ‘negotiations can begin on Ukraine’s future’. Sounds reasonable…

 

[Yossarian]

According to that AP report, Putin also claimed there was a big misunderstanding about how his peaceful troops peacefully invaded Ukraine and peacefully made their way toward Kyiv in the interests of peace

The Kremlin has repeatedly aired its readiness for peace talks with Kyiv and blamed the West for undermining its efforts to end the conflict. Putin went further Friday and claimed his troops never intended to storm Ukraine’s capital, Kyiv, even though they approached the city. “In essence, it was nothing other than an operation to force the Ukrainian regime to peace. The troops were there to push the Ukrainian side to negotiate, to try and find an acceptable solution,” he said.

Moscow withdrew from Kyiv in March 2022 and described it a goodwill gesture as peace talks between the two began, but the pullback took place amid fierce Ukrainian resistance that significantly slowed down Russia’s battlefield advances.

 

[Yossarian]

Also requires all western sanctions lifted, and this is all just so ‘negotiations can begin on Ukraine’s future’. Sounds reasonable…

"Negotiations can begin as soon as you give me everything I want"

 

[discokermit]

it will be the best offer the ukrainians get.

 

[Rob Ray]

Which brings us neatly to the reality of your position, which is not "pro peace" but pro a temporary cease-fire followed by occupation, the destruction of what limited democracy Ukraine has and the imposition of a Russian strongman in a straightforward expansion of Russian imperialism. Followed, no doubt, by the same crackdowns against the socialist left and progressive rights that we've seen in Russia and Belarus.

You might not agree with the possibility of successful resistance but I wonder, can you bend your brain around others' lack of enthusiasm for endorsing that outcome?

 

[TopCat]

Which brings us neatly to the reality of your position, which is not "pro peace" but pro a temporary cease-fire followed by occupation, the destruction of what limited democracy Ukraine has and the imposition of a Russian strongman in a straightforward expansion of Russian imperialism. Followed, no doubt, by the same crackdowns against the socialist left and progressive rights that we've seen in Russia and Belarus.

You might not agree with the possibility of successful resistance but I wonder, can you bend your brain around others' lack of enthusiasm for endorsing that outcome?

Can you focus on the conflict instead of baiting people who don’t agree with you?

 

[ska invita]

Also requires all western sanctions lifted, and this is all just so ‘negotiations can begin on Ukraine’s future’. Sounds reasonable…

What are the current Ukrainian demands for peace and where would you rate them on the reasonable/likely scale? In a peace deal compromises will be made between extreme demands.

 

[Yossarian]

Can you focus on the conflict instead of baiting people who don’t agree with you?

Who the fuck put you in charge of policing the thread

 

[discokermit]

Which brings us neatly to the reality of your position, which is not "pro peace" but pro a temporary cease-fire followed by occupation, the destruction of what limited democracy Ukraine has and the imposition of a Russian strongman in a straightforward expansion of Russian imperialism. Followed, no doubt, by the same crackdowns against the socialist left and progressive rights that we've seen in Russia and Belarus.

You might not agree with the possibility of successful resistance but I wonder, can you bend your brain around others' lack of enthusiasm for endorsing that outcome?

i don't give a shit if you are enthusiastic or not.

 

[Rob Ray]

Can you focus on the conflict instead of baiting people who don’t agree with you?

I feel like you wear a fishing hat a bit too often on this thread to go around lecturing.

 

[TopCat]

Who the fuck put you in charge of policing the thread

I asked a polite question. I suggest you wind your neck in and refrain from swearing at me.

 

[The39thStep]

What are the current Ukrainian demands for peace and where would you rate them on the reasonable/likely scale? In a peace deal compromises will be made between extreme demands.

Good question . There is a Ukraine led conference/ summit this week.

 

[Silas Loom]

Ukraine isn’t going to issue any demands other than Russia fucking off out of its country, though. Not unless and until there is much less reason for optimism.

 

[ska invita]

Good question . There is a Ukraine led conference/ summit this week.

These Ukrainian "peace" conferences are exercises for drumming up military support from what I can tell.

 

[TopCat]

Ukraine isn’t going to issue any demands other than Russia fucking off out of its country, though. Not unless and until there is much less reason for optimism.

Ukraine has a long list of demands. Oft stated.