Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
At that point they'll issue no more demands and cravenly take what they're given
Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24
- Thread starter kebabking
- Start date
AnandLeo
Tipple Ripple
Putin says there will be a ceasefire if the Donbas region of Ukraine is annexed by Russia. Unfortunately, that cannot happen. That is contrary to the territorial integrity of Ukraine that Putin owns about Russia. However, the Donbas region with a majority Russian population could be availed an autonomous or devolved government with an alliance of Russia. That has to be a civilised international agreement. One-third of the population in Donbas prefers an alliance with the West and EU. That alliance has to be accommodated in some form of sharing of international relations. Putin has no claim for a vassal state of Ukraine. Putin’s demand for neutrality in Ukraine may be granted. I do not think Ukraine joining NATO ten years from now is a reality or necessity provided Russia ends its hostility to Ukraine and establishes friendly relations with Ukraine, and compensates for the war crimes and destruction. Instead of war-mongering the West and EU can ensure the security and territorial integrity of Russia if Putin cooperates and abandons his outlandish political ideologies such as the Russian empire.
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Silas Loom
Advanced. Forthright. Signifficant.
Do you mean its wishlist for support from Allies? Ska was asking about “current Ukrainian demands for peace”, which seem to me to have been consistent from the outset.
Ukraine Strikes Blow To Russian Su-34 Fullback Base
Morosovsk Airfield, some 150 miles from the front lines, was hit by what Ukraine claims was a mass drone attack.
www.twz.com
DownwardDog
Riding a Brompton with a power meter.
Ukraine haven't made any significant territorial gains since September 2022, their economy is destroyed, the east of the country is in ruins, Zelensky's democratic mandate has expired and they've had X00,000 people killed.
Where is the source of optimism?
Silas Loom
Advanced. Forthright. Signifficant.
One source of optimism is that Western support and sanctions on Russia are both increasing, if far more slowly than they should, and that they should eventually reach a level at which Russia will find it impossible to defend the territory it has appropriated.
There are more. Zelensky has still not been murdered, the west of the country has still not been invaded, and of course the Black Sea is clear for grain exports and coastal towns aren’t being shelled too badly while Russian ships aren’t safe anywhere near the Ukrainian coastline, Sevastopol included.
Better than one would have hoped for when Russian tanks were first advancing on Kyiv, surely?
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Yesterday, I learnt from the Guardian that Farage has only got one testicle. Today I learnt from this unimpeachable source that the allegedly secret but flammable presidential palace has a bath where Putin can bathe in antler extracts.Putin's palace in Altai, the one he pretends is a Gazprom sanitorium that for some reasons needs the presidential guard to be stationed there, it caught fire yesterday. More clumsy smokers I guess...
Russian media report fire in Putinâs residence in Altai â photos
The Russian Telegram channel has reported that one of the buildings in the residence of Kremlin dictator Vladimir Putin in the Ongudaysky district of the Altai Republic almost completely burned down.www.pravda.com.ua
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
It's good to know that those Russians soldiers who are still dying in vast numbers are veterans who are not doing so ineptly, but presumably with a degree of skill and panache.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
How do you know that?
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
This is just fucking vile, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I always thought you were a pro-war poster and this effort demonstrates it
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
So, our Urban experts sayy that one great leader is depressed because he lives underground and has little contact with the folk being bombed in the city above his head and the other because he vlives in gloomy isolation in a Siberian bunker.
Both need cheering up. Perhaps we should crowdfund a box set of Zelensky Dvds from his time on the comedy circuit to be sent to Putin, and to a bottle of Vladimir the Pink's Maral deer pantocrine compound to be sent to Zelensky.
www.inspireuplift.com
Both need cheering up. Perhaps we should crowdfund a box set of Zelensky Dvds from his time on the comedy circuit to be sent to Putin, and to a bottle of Vladimir the Pink's Maral deer pantocrine compound to be sent to Zelensky.
Maral antler extract Pantocrine - Inspire Uplift
Pantocrine - the classic extract of maral antlers The classic extract of the Altai deer antlers is called pantocrine. It is made exclusively from red deer antle
www.inspireuplift.com
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discokermit
Well-Known Member
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
I've yet to see a single pro-war poster on here.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
TC and Kermit are most definitely pro-war.
They want Russia to be rewarded for starting it. That's totally pro-war.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
nonsense.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
World leaders to gather in Swiss resort in attempt to forge Ukraine peace plan
More than 100 leaders at two-day conference to discuss Kyiv’s proposals to end war – but Russia and China absent
A joint communique on Sunday is expected to centre on the importance of the UN principles on maintaining and respecting “sovereignty and territorial integrity”.
While this is not seen as advancing peace in itself, it is designed to “reduce the space for any unhelpful initiatives”, say those with knowledge of the conference.
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
They are certainly the nearest to being pro-war, but I don't think they actually are, more just naive.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
BBC article on Ukraine's peace proposals
"The meeting on Lake Lucerne will home in on three of the least contentious points in President Zelensky’s peace formula: the issues of nuclear security, getting food to global markets and getting abducted Ukrainian children and prisoners back home.
Straying beyond that is unlikely to be productive."
Full list of Ukraine's demands :
"The meeting on Lake Lucerne will home in on three of the least contentious points in President Zelensky’s peace formula: the issues of nuclear security, getting food to global markets and getting abducted Ukrainian children and prisoners back home.
Straying beyond that is unlikely to be productive."
Ukraine war: Zelensky seeks show of support at giant Swiss summit
The hosts Switzerland hope the talks will bring progress towards peace, but Russia is not attending.
www.bbc.com
Full list of Ukraine's demands :
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
They want Russia to win a war that was started by Russia, and could be ended instantly by Russia. That's 100%, absolutely, bang the fuck on, pro war.
The naivety is in the reasoning behind their positions, but it's still nailed-on pro-war.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
I don't agree with them but I don't think that's true. More like they are much more realistic about the eventual outcome
. I've recently been seeing their posts as a balance to the great number of posts on the thread hoping for a Ukrainian win, which I assume they also really want (if they can put aside the temptation to view a Russian win as "well I told you so").
Silas Loom
Advanced. Forthright. Signifficant.
I don't agree with them but I don't think that's true. More like they are much more realistic about the eventual outcome
I've recently been seeing their posts as a balance to the great number of posts on the thread hoping for a Ukrainian win, which I assume they also really want (if they can put aside the temptation to view a Russian win as "well I told you so").
That’s an extremely generous assumption. I think they’d be very upset by a win for expansionist NATO aggressors and the Banderite Kyiv regime.
Yossarian
⏭️
I haven't seen any pro-war posters but a few might be considered pro-special military operation
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
So many posters are bang-on pro-war. Emanymton is a bit of an outlier in slagging off posts that simply ask what kyiv might demand for peace but many other posters aren't that far behind him.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I've a fair notion you'd despise anyone in kyiv if they suggested they might settle for less than the restoration of 2013 borders. It's that maximalist position which fuels the war, be it putin wanting obeisance from kyiv or zelensky wanting everything as it was before the seizure of land in 2014. Few posters on this thread are calling for peace tbh
ska invita
back on the other side
I dont know what you're so upset about, its a serious question. Have a go at answering it.
Theres a "ten-point plan" Zelensky has put on the table and I'm asking anyone prepared to answer how "serious" or "achievable" this plan is. The Russian demands are overegged but ultimately boil down to recognising the annexed territories they occupy.
Ukraine today (as opposed to the early days of the war) now has very specific demands, including Russia giving up Crimea. At the start of the war it was reported that a peace deal including additional loss of territory (Crimea already considered gone) was on the cards. It is also reported that it was our very own military genius "Bo Jo" who played a key role in spiking that accord.
Now this weekend there is a yet another Ukrainian "peace conference", actually a war escalation conference, the attempt of which is to cement these (to my eye clearly unachievable) goals including retaking Crimea. Despite Zelensky's attempted blackmailing (posted upthread) Biden isn't going to it as it is basically a waste of everyone's time beyond symbolism.
The Guardian reporting has this choice comment: " While this is not seen as advancing peace in itself, it is designed to “reduce the space for any unhelpful initiatives”, say those with knowledge of the conference. "
My position is one of realism, something that used to be considered essential in war, to avoid exactly what is happening: endless extension of a conflict with no realistic end-game, to achieve no material gain at the price of ever more murderous killing and destruction
ska invita
back on the other side
This is delusional not optimistic.
On a benchmark of 2022 has Western "support" (which means supplying weapons) increased or decreased?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Silas has very dubious politics
Silas Loom
Advanced. Forthright. Signifficant.
Increased in terms of the range and lethality of kit provided and the permission to use it as appropriate.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I'm curious where you think Ukraine is going to find the men to take back occupied land. Do you think nato countries will supply them alongside himars?
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