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Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

TopCat said:
Taigs bad orcs ok
Click to expand...
Taig is a derogatory term used by the British army of occupation and other bigots, in the same way Russia will use Khokhol for Ukrainians. Orc is slightly different, it's a derogatory term used against an oppressing army and only seemed to be widely adopted after the Russian army started looting, murdering and raping. I'm personally not keen on it as it's dehumanising and I've called it out on here. However, I can see why it's caught on in Ukraine.

I find it comparable to how British soldiers are compared to monkeys in Ireland

"Toora loora loora loo
They’re looking for monkeys up at the zoo
And says I: “If I had a face like you
I’d join the British army”
 
ukraines foreign minister seems to think the military aid wont be enough to stop the russians and it needs nato to go in,

www.theguardian.com

Ukraine foreign minister says west must boost defence as ‘era of peace is over’

Exclusive: Dmytro Kuleba hails US aid package but says allies need to increase arms production to help fight RussiaUkraine war – live updates
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

this bit was interesting,
He said the restoration of US military aid, held up for months by Donald Trump-aligned Republicans, would not be sufficient to defeat Russia. “No single package can stop the Russians. What will stop the Russians is a united front of all of Ukraine and all of its partners.”

Kuleba said the west needed to increase arms production, as Ukraine had, because it had been outpaced by Russia. Russia is out-shelling Ukraine by a ratio of about 10 to one, while Ukraine is running short of air defences.

“When I see what Russia achieved in building up its defence industrial base in two years of the war and what the west has achieved, I think something is wrong on the part of the west,” Kuleba said. “The west has to realise the era of peace in Europe is over.”
 
Where's the help for those fleeing from war on the grounds they don't want to fight?

WARSAW, April 24 (Reuters) - Poland is ready to help Ukraine in getting military-age male citizens to return and help their home country in fighting in the war against Russia, Defence Minister Wladyslaw Kosiniak-Kamysz said on Wednesday.
The Ukrainian government announced rules on Wednesday under which passports for military-age men can be issued only inside the country instead of foreign diplomatic missions.
As a result, men aged between 18 and 59 living abroad will be unable to renew expiring passports or obtain new ones.

Poland has suggested in the past helping Ukraine so that those who are subject to military service go back to their country to fulfill their civic obligation, Kosiniak-Kamysz told Polsat News television.
"I think many Poles are outraged when they see young Ukrainian men in hotels and cafes, and they hear how much effort we have to make to help Ukraine," he said, without giving any details on how Poland will help.

Some 4.3 million Ukrainians are living in European Union countries as of January, 2024, of whom about 860,000 are adult men, the Eurostat database estimates. Poland has granted temporary protection status to 950,000 Ukrainians, the second-largest number after Germany.
"Any support is possible," Kosiniak-Kamysz said about how Poland would respond if Kyiv asked for help in bringing home those who may lose their right to stay in Poland once their passports expire.
Click to expand...


Loading…

www.reuters.com
 
Poland's picked up several million Ukrainians over the past two years. They were all about supporting their close friends when they thought they might go back home in the short term, but right now they're just looking for ways to get rid of them.
 
The39thStep said:
Where's the help for those fleeing from war on the grounds they don't want to fight?




Loading…

www.reuters.com
Click to expand...
So no extradition so far but pressure building on men avoiding being drafted. No valid passport could lead to one way trip home.
  • Ukraine has stopped issuing new passports at offices abroad to some military-aged male citizens, according to legislation published on Wednesday, as part of measures to push them to return home amid manpower shortages in the army. The announcement came a day after the suspension of consular services for men aged 18 to 60 living abroad until the new law on mobilisation is implemented. Ukraine’s foreign ministry said the passport suspension applied only to new applications and that any requests previously submitted would be honoured.
  • In Warsaw, Poland, hundreds of Ukrainians crowded outside a closed passport office in a confused scene. There was anger among those who felt they were being unfairly targeted. “This is a fight against people who are fleeing the army,” said Maksym, a 38-year-old truck driver. “We are not asked on what grounds we went abroad … Why am I a draft dodger if I went abroad legally?” Ukraine’s ambassador to Poland, Vasyl Zvarych, told AFP that “all applications submitted to the consular offices of Ukraine before April 23 … will be processed in full and passport documents will be issued to such people”.
 
tim said:
The ones who aren't dead, maimed or suffering from shell shock might battle hardened, whatever that stupid cliché means.
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you are right, it is a stupid cliche. i lazily employed it as shorthand for the russian military, from top to bottom, now has the experience of fighting a war like this. along with government and all sorts of people. from organising the logistics to stabbing someone in the chest from behind they know how to do it.
the only other country with that sort of experience is ukraine.
 
discokermit said:
ukraines foreign minister seems to think the military aid wont be enough to stop the russians and it needs nato to go in,

www.theguardian.com

Ukraine foreign minister says west must boost defence as ‘era of peace is over’

Exclusive: Dmytro Kuleba hails US aid package but says allies need to increase arms production to help fight RussiaUkraine war – live updates
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...

Have you posted the right link?

Only I can't see anything in that article claiming the Ukrainians 'needs NATO to go in.'
 
cupid_stunt said:
Have you posted the right link?

Only I can't see anything in that article claiming the Ukrainians 'needs NATO to go in.'
Click to expand...
you know, rereading it, i made a mistake.

i read “No single package can stop the Russians. What will stop the Russians is a united front of all of Ukraine and all of its partners.” and thought it meant what i said. i must have skipped over the later clarification of " “success on the battlefield” and a coalition of countries to back Zelenskiy’s peace formula of a Russian withdrawal, reparations and a war crimes tribunal."

apologies and thanks for pointing it out.
 
just reading this article, German media publish Russian-Ukrainian peace agreement that could have been signed at the beginning of the war - Euromaidan Press

and spotted this,

Why the agreement failed​

The negotiators then predicted that Zelenskyy and Putin would sign the document in April 2022.

Die Welt writes that a member of the Ukrainian delegation, David Arahamiya, suggested in November 2023 why the two leaders never met. Then British Prime Minister Boris Johnson arrived in Kyiv on April 9 and said that London would “sign nothing” with Putin and that Ukraine should continue fighting.

Johnson later rejected this thesis. However, according to Die Welt, there is reason to believe that the proposal to provide security guarantees to Ukraine in agreement with Russia failed at this stage.
 
discokermit said:
just reading this article, German media publish Russian-Ukrainian peace agreement that could have been signed at the beginning of the war - Euromaidan Press

and spotted this,

Why the agreement failed​

The negotiators then predicted that Zelenskyy and Putin would sign the document in April 2022.

Die Welt writes that a member of the Ukrainian delegation, David Arahamiya, suggested in November 2023 why the two leaders never met. Then British Prime Minister Boris Johnson arrived in Kyiv on April 9 and said that London would “sign nothing” with Putin and that Ukraine should continue fighting.

Johnson later rejected this thesis. However, according to Die Welt, there is reason to believe that the proposal to provide security guarantees to Ukraine in agreement with Russia failed at this stage.
Click to expand...

I am sure you spotted that, as it fits your agenda, but you ignored the important parts, that don't fit your agenda.

Russia demanded that in the event of an attack, all guarantor states agree to activate the assistance mechanism. This would have given Moscow veto power to override the defense mechanism. In addition, Moscow rejected a Ukrainian demand that guarantor states could establish a no-fly zone over Ukraine in the event of an attack.
Click to expand...
Also unresolved was the issue of the size of the Ukrainian army in the future. Kyiv partially responded to Russia’s demands for demilitarization. Moscow demanded that the Ukrainian army be reduced to 85,000 soldiers – about one million soldiers are now serving there. Ukraine proposed a troop strength of 250,000 soldiers.

Opinions also differed on the amount of military equipment. Russia demanded to reduce the number of tanks to 342, while Kyiv wanted to keep up to 800. Ukraine only wanted to reduce the number of armored vehicles to 2400 units, while Russia demanded to keep only 1029 units.
Click to expand...
There was also a big difference in artillery guns. Moscow planned 519, Kyiv 1,900. Kyiv wanted to keep 600 multiple rocket launchers with a range of up to 280 kilometers; according to Russia’s ideas, there should have been 96 of them with a maximum range of 40 kilometers. According to Russia’s wishes, the number of mortars was to be reduced to 147 and anti-tank missiles to 333; according to Kyiv’s wishes, they were to be reduced to 1,080 and 2,000 respectively.
Click to expand...

Before even considering any of the other things there, the idea that Moscow could use its veto power to override the defense mechanism, guaranteed it wouldn't be accepted.
 
cupid_stunt said:
I am sure you spotted that, as it fits your agenda, but you ignored the important parts, that don't fit your agenda.





Before even considering any of the other things there, the idea that Moscow could use its veto power to override the defense mechanism, guaranteed it wouldn't be accepted.
Click to expand...
it also said they were close to agreement and that russia was prepared to concede on some things.
 
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