Are you going to try and explain how Russian annexation of Ukraine helps the socialist revolution along or are you going to continue to refuse any invitation to think for yourself?
Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24
- Thread starter kebabking
- Start date
maomao
普費斯
Are you somehow inferring that posters who expressed support for Israel and stopped posting have changed their minds since? That's very generous of you.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Really strangely you say nothing of the ussr as victim, attacked treacherously by their erstwhile ally. While simultaneously being an aggressor.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
There's 18 months of posting time in which they could have demonstrated their views on the European war
Yossarian
⏭️
I can't think of anybody who isn't long gone that would support bombing Gaza flat and starving the survivors to death
It was a victim of a Nazi invasion. It was an aggressor when it invaded Poland and the Baltics. Again, not complicated.
Israel was a victim of an attack from Hamas on October 7th but it is not currently being invaded by Hamas. It has, however, invaded Gaza. Similarly, Russia invaded Ukraine.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You're saying it's important to be on the side of the victim. The point I've made is that on 23 June 1941 the ussr was both a victim and an aggressor. I'm getting the sense that you'd have stood up for the plucky poles and Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians (and the finns, who you tend to forget) but not necessarily for the ussr
Probably not but while they don't post here, the bulk of westerners who support Russia are far-right.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Don't they? All of them? I'm not so sure about that. Certainly I don't think many Israelis are simply repeating a line when they see the Palestinians as aggressors. But I'm not claiming that I agree with any of these arguments or that they are good and sensible, I'm saying that the idea that some sort of objective victim vs aggressor is naive - and a political dead end.
I think the Israeli's that consider Palestinians as the aggressors are viewing the conflict through a specific political view - one that I sharply disagree with. I'd also disagree with the view of Palestinians who consider Isreali's (rather than the state) the aggressor. But for any useful (i.e. pro-working class) political action to take place any group needs to at least attempt to understand such political viewpoints.
EDIT: I've a Russian colleague, he's lived outside Russia for decades, he's no fan of Putin and he did not support the invasion. Still I don't think he would recognise it simply as a case of a victim and an aggressor, he sees this conflict in the context on Russia being pressured by the US/EU/NATO. To say he's just conning himself or deluded, is not just unfair but does not get anywhere.
We're socialists, the basis of our politics is that struggle and power forms politics, most crucially class struggle, but other material factors too. People's class, nationality, race, gender, sexuality, where they were born, the education they had, the social capital they had/have access to. All these create and more our politics, and out politics shape them. Is the story of the Paris Commune one of mob rule or an inspiring attempt of workers fighting for themselves.
What reality? Yours.
Politics is not some objective science with one reality. The whole point of political conflicts is that you have a clash of competing groups with different political realities. The position you're articulating this morning would make most mid-century liberals throw up their hands.
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So you think there is some grey area and Ukraine is also an aggressor here?
If we can't accept that basic facts of events exist and think everything is a matter of opinion, then there is no point discussing anything as we can just make up any reality we feel like.
All that is left then is use of force.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Not at all. I'm saying that your it's important to stand with the victim is a really simplistic stance and that maybe other factors should be considered, that things should be considered on a case by case basis. Take Cambodia, for example, the Vietnamese invasion. Do you stand up beside pol pot?
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
From the perspective of class struggle what does it even mean to talk about 'victims' and 'aggressors'.
Socialism is not directed at improving working class power because it is a moral right, but because it is the fulcrum to overturn capitalism.
The view that the class struggle in Ukraine (and Russia) is best advanced by enlisting in the army, supporting the Ukrainian state obtain arms, etc is one I respect (especially the tremendously brave comrades fighting on the front lines), even while I might have some points of disagreement or criticism.
But that view is a millions miles from a lot of the stuff posted on this thread.
Socialism is not directed at improving working class power because it is a moral right, but because it is the fulcrum to overturn capitalism.
The view that the class struggle in Ukraine (and Russia) is best advanced by enlisting in the army, supporting the Ukrainian state obtain arms, etc is one I respect (especially the tremendously brave comrades fighting on the front lines), even while I might have some points of disagreement or criticism.
But that view is a millions miles from a lot of the stuff posted on this thread.
Sure, things should be considered on a case by case basis. And I'm yet to hear a good reason for supporting Russia against Ukraine other than "America bad" which is the extremely simplistic way of viewing the world I was responding to. Countries other than the US can be aggressors.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
1967 - you oppose Israel alongside the Arab states
1973 - you side with the zionists against the Arabs
I don't think you've any real principles
discokermit
Well-Known Member
the collapse of the us empire could bring many opportunities. whether or not these opportunities are taken is another matter.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
I can think some viewpoints are 'better' or 'worse' than others, while still recognising that they exist, that other people have them. I can also see that even if I consider such viewpoints extremely stupid/harmful that it might be important to try and understand why other people have those viewpoints.
Most people don't subscribe to my political basis - class struggle. I think those that describe the conflict in Ukraine in terms of a liberal (or conservative) nationalist perspective are taking a perspective that is ultimately harmful, and opposed to my political aims.
But I don't think all those people are deluded or evil. I can understand why they take that perspective, indeed as I try organise against it I need to understand it.
Cid
Proper break this time
Weren't you ranting about how you thought another poster was experiencing cognitive decline a few pages ago?
maomao
普費斯
Very generous. Where people left a thread complaining loudly about the quality of debate at the beginning of an obvious genocide I prefer to take them at their last word.
The reason you think I'm a liberal is because I don't take the right to post on somewhere like this forum for granted, but I do think in terms of class struggle as well, e.g. working class organisation is impossible if you don't have the right to communicate.
I see the war in Ukraine within the context of a rise in authoritarian capitalism enabled by neoliberal globalisation which has undermined not just social democracy but also liberal democracy by limiting the possibility for meaningful negotiation between Labour and capital due to threat of capital flight and outsourcing of jobs.
discokermit Russian victory in Ukraine would not necessarily lead to the collapse of the US empire. There is a possibility of the US embracing Russia to counter China if Trump wins. Russian interests do not contradict USA's really.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
What? I don't even know what you mean here. I certainly don't think you're a liberal because of something about posting on U75.
I don't know what political actions you're involved in or really anything about you.
I do think your postings on U75 show a distinct lack of understanding or appreciation of the history and philosophy of socialism and class struggle. For example describing a bunch on metropolitan mayors having a dining club as communism) or this sort of ahistoric claim
The working class has very often not had the right to communicate but it has still organised. Capital and states frequently not only denied the right but took authoritarian measures to attempt to stop organisation. Yet class struggle still occurred and indeed workers still fought.
That statement is one that any mid-century liberal could have made, Russell, Kenyes etc. The focus on democracy rather than class struggle treads a well worn path.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
i didnt say it would. i would say there is a greater chance of it. even the greater chance i wouldnt describe as great though.
as for the us embracing russia to counter china because of trump. this is just nonsense in many different ways.
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Yossarian
⏭️
editor
hiraethified
That's where I'm at too.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
It would seem that common decency and humanitarianism is not class-based enough for some people.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I've read and re-read that middle paragraph several times however I'm struggling with it .I've come up with so many possible variations about what I think you mean that it's best that you break this argument down in baby steps please.
The degree of AI enabled surveillance used in China today far outweighs anything that has previously existed so looking at the past isn't necessarily a useful guide. The tools that a fascist/authoritarian state can have at their disposal these days is unprecedented. Not just censorship and surveillance but the capacity to produce misinformation via deep fakes and so on is very frightening.
I didn't click your link to a previous post of mine cos I don't want to cringe. I don't deny I've posted some bad ideas over the years, but that isn't because I don't understand the history of class struggle, it is because I understand it well enough to recognise that the conditions that gave rise to a workers movement in the 19th and first half of the 20th Centuries no longer exist so I am keen to look for a new approaches which could revive working class politics in the contemporary context. You need to look at the present with new eyes in order to understand why socialism has declined and figure out how to revive it as a movement. Looking to the past does have lessons but they are limited.
Also, the early workers movement did push for things like freedom of speech, of association, and universal suffrage so I don't see how wanting to defend those rights is separate to socialism. The whole point of anti-fascism being a part of the left was to defend these hard won rights. It seems some on the left now think that these things don't matter and authoritarianism/fascism and liberalism is basically all the same. This is a very naive position, and comes across to me as honestly quite spoilt in taking these for granted.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Tgise that stopped posting did so not because they supported Israel but because of the
In reality nobody posting here has much insight as to the conclusion of this conflict
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