Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Rimbaud]

Remember the global south supports Palestinians and doesn’t support this US sponsored war in Ukraine. Yours is a right wing euro view

The Global South speaks with one voice do they?

United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/4 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Afghanistan (yes even under the Taliban... almost like they remember a Russian occupation killing a million of their citizens isn't it? Or are the Taliban yankee stooges now?), Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belize, Benin, Bhutan, Botswana, Brazil, Brunei, Cambodia, Cape Verde, Chad, Chile, Colombia... and I'm getting tired of writing there is so many, but the majority of the global south voted to condemn Russia's invasion.

And even if they didn't, it doesn't mean they would be right. Could be understandable to think western concern about a war in Europe is hypocritical compared to lack of concern with other conflicts, but that is hardly Ukraine's fault and doesn't change the actual situation in which Russia is the aggressor.

 

[Pickman's model]

The Global South speaks with one voice do they?

United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/4 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Afghanistan (yes even under the Taliban... almost like they remember a Russian occupation killing a million of their citizens isn't it? Or are the Taliban yankee stooges now?), Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belize, Benin, Bhutan, Botswana, Brazil, Brunei, Cambodia, Cape Verde, Chad, Chile, Colombia... and I'm getting tired of writing there is so many, but the majority of the global south voted to condemn Russia's invasion.

And even if they didn't, it doesn't mean they would be right. Could be understandable to think western concern about a war in Europe is hypocritical compared to lack of concern with other conflicts, but that is hardly Ukraine's fault and doesn't change the actual situation in which Russia is the aggressor.

And what has changed 2 years on?

 

[Rimbaud]

And what has changed 2 years on?

I don't know, I can't find information about further UN votes or polling that goes beyond India and China.

 

[Rimbaud]

Remember the global south supports Palestinians and doesn’t support this US sponsored war in Ukraine. Yours is a right wing euro view

Also the "global south" is extremely diverse and it is silly to think that China has much in common with Guatemala or Ghana.

It's an outdated term really - loads of "Global South" countries are richer than "Global North" ones these days. China and a couple of dozen global south countries are richer per capita than Ukraine, Kosovo, Moldova, Belarus, Macedonia, Bosnia, Albania, Serbia and Montenegro which are supposedly part of the rich global North. Even EU members Romania and Bulgaria are poorer than the likes of Chile, Guyana and Uruguay.

 

[maomao]

Two things can be bad at the same time. People posting in support of Ukraine here have been posting in support of Palestine in the other thread. How could this be?!?!

I can't think of many (any?) posters who have been actively posting supporting both those positions.

 

[Rimbaud]

I can't think of many (any?) posters who have been actively posting supporting both those positions.

Well there's me for starters.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Remember the global south supports Palestinians and doesn’t support this US sponsored war in Ukraine. Yours is a right wing euro view

Is this what you were just talking about Rimbaud ?

 

[kabbes]

Well there's me for starters.

Yeah, me too

 

[Yossarian]

I can't think of many (any?) posters who have been actively posting supporting both those positions.

Have any posters, apart from the occasional troll, been supporting or defending Israel's genocidal offensive in Gaza? Or deflecting criticism of Israel with criticism of Palestinians?

 

[maomao]

Have any posters, apart from the occasional troll, been supporting or defending Israel's genocidal offensive in Gaza? Or deflecting criticism of Israel with criticism of Palestinians?

Yes. The dynamics are slightly different and the default is 'you're all anti semites' but the Gaza thread features both your examples.

 

[redsquirrel]

The point is supporting the victim against the aggressor.

The Israeli state claims that Hamas was the aggressor. The British state claimed (and still does in part) that the IRA was the aggressor. The Russian state claims Ukraine/NATO were the aggressors. I don't believe those claims are accurate or valid but the 'aggressor' depends on one's political viewpoint, the context, and the history.

The position you've articulated is not just simplistic it is lacking in any sort of class basis.

 

[emanymton]

Yeah, me too

I've not posted as much on the issue but me to.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Well there's me for starters.

Me too

 

[emanymton]

The Israeli state claims that Hamas was the aggressor. The British state claimed (and still does in part) that the IRA was the aggressor. The Russian state claims Ukraine/NATO were the aggressors. I don't those claims are accurate or valid but the 'aggressor' depends on one's political viewpoint, the context, and the history.

The position you've articulated is not just simplistic it is lacking in any sort of class basis.

Oh come, no one remotely sane can see Ukraine as the aggressor here. Even the Russia's saying it don't believe it.

 

[Pickman's model]

The point is supporting the victim against the aggressor.

is it really, that seems very simplistic. Sadly life's a mite more complicated - eg the ussr was allied to Germany from 1939 to 1941. During this period the ussr invaded Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland and Poland. Was the Soviet Union an aggressor or a victim? Are victim and aggressor mutually exclusive and diametrically opposed?

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh come, no one remotely sane can see Ukraine as the aggressor here. Even the Russia's saying it don't believe it.

Keep it classy, enanymton.

 

[Yossarian]

Yes. The dynamics are slightly different and the default is 'you're all anti semites' but the Gaza thread features both your examples.

Would there be many regular posters in the middle of an 'Expressed support for Israel - Expressed support for Ukraine' Venn diagram? I think there would be far more opposed to the actions of both Israel and Russia

 

[emanymton]

Ah you think redsquirrel's mentally ill. Keep it classy, emanymton

I didn't get the idea from their post they thought Ukraine was the aggressor.

 

[Pickman's model]

I didn't get the idea from their post they thought Ukraine was the aggressor.

Nonetheless it's curious to see a political position upheld as a symptom of mental illness.

 

[emanymton]

Would there be many regular posters in the middle of an 'Expressed support for Israel - Expressed support for Ukraine' Venn diagram? I think there would be far more opposed to the actions of both Israel and Russia

Apparently all the demonstrations in support of Palestinians I've been on was because I actually support Israel and the US. Who knew.

 

[emanymton]

Nonetheless it's curious to see a political position upheld as a symptom of mental illness.

Oh wait, you think Ukraine was the aggressor so are taking it personally.

 

[maomao]

Would there be many regular posters in the middle of an 'Expressed support for Israel - Expressed support for Ukraine' Venn diagram? I think there would be far more opposed to the actions of both Israel and Russia

I have eight names in the middle of the first venn diagram and four or five in the middle of the second one, though I was absent some months and have a good chunk of the boards on ignore these days. Short of naming posters and starting a fight I think we have to leave that there.

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh wait, you think Ukraine was the aggressor so are taking it personally.

Yeh let's see whether you can support that with evidence. Sure I must have let that slip in nearly 3k posts

But no, not at all. I don't see people having foolish political views or beliefs as mad, as mentally ill. People cam be entirely rational and believe the strangest things.

 

[Rimbaud]

The Israeli state claims that Hamas was the aggressor. The British state claimed (and still does in part) that the IRA was the aggressor. The Russian state claims Ukraine/NATO were the aggressors. I don't those claims are accurate or valid but the 'aggressor' depends on one's political viewpoint, the context, and the history.

The position you've articulated is not just simplistic it is lacking in any sort of class basis.

Yes but the reality is that Israel, the British state, and Russia are the colonial powers in all 3 of those situations.

NI isn't totally analogous became the British state did not attack NI during the troubles exactly as it already controlled it. Israel has invaded Gaza however, just as Russia has invaded Ukraine. It is a closer analogy even if still a very different situation.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes but the reality is that Israel, the British state, and Russia are the colonial powers in all 3 of those situations.

NI isn't totally analogous became the British state did not attack NI during the troubles exactly as it already controlled it. Israel has invaded Gaza however, just as Russia has invaded Ukraine. It is a closer analogy even if still a very different situation.

If the UK controlled the six counties why did operation banner last so long?

 

[Yossarian]

Somebody more Excel-minded than me might be tempted to put up a complicated poll, I just want to put myself down as strongly opposed to the invaders and occupiers committing atrocities in both Palestine and Ukraine.

 

[Silas Loom]

Would there be many regular posters in the middle of an 'Expressed support for Israel - Expressed support for Ukraine' Venn diagram? I think there would be far more opposed to the actions of both Israel and Russia

Posters who either left the boards completely in October or decided not to participate in Israel-related threads, because they found the tenor of the conversation unbearable, are unlikely to have been pro-Russia.

 

[Rimbaud]

is it really, that seems very simplistic. Sadly life's a mite more complicated - eg the ussr was allied to Germany from 1939 to 1941. During this period the ussr invaded Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland and Poland. Was the Soviet Union an aggressor or a victim? Are victim and aggressor mutually exclusive and diametrically opposed?

Yes. The USSR was an aggressor when it invaded Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland and Poland. Nazi Germany was also an aggressor when it invaded those same countries and an aggressor when it invaded the Soviet Union.

It isn't that complicated. Both the USSR and Nazi Germany were aggressors. The Baltics and Poland were victims of aggression from both countries.

 

[discokermit]

Two things can be bad at the same time. People posting in support of Ukraine here have been posting in support of Palestine in the other thread. How could this be?!?!

inconsistent politics and naive worldview.

 

[Yossarian]

Posters who either left the boards completely in October or decided not to participate in Israel-related threads, because they found the tenor of the conversation unbearable, are unlikely to have been pro-Russia.

The only poster I can think of who would still be sticking up for Israel at this point got banned about 15 years ago