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Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

I don't mind if you're pissed or tired or whatever but funnily enough I think we are close to agreement. Watch them tarantulas and take it easy eh? :)
 
Bahnhof Strasse said:
That thing about dialing down the aggression. You should try it, be good for your heart and health.
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OHHHH KAYYY

Here's me and an explanation:
I get the argument I think, that if the lines aren't going to change then 'we' should avoid the needless additional deaths. And in that case Ukraine's supporters (USA and others including more relevantly on here the UK) should encourage the Ukrainian government to jack it in. But the governments of the US and UK and others promised to back them and Ukranians still fight.
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I 'get the argument'. If you follow the thread that's a point of argument. That fighting won't make any difference in territory. Whether it will or won't is debatable. I certainly think Russia won't give up unless forced to. But that's an argument being made which I think I grasp though don't agree with.

Call it jingoism if you want, but there's a clear wrong actor here, and a country trying to survive. It was always going to be an uncertain outcome, and pretty soon it became clear it would be drawn out. But I think to wring your hands and betray that promise is a mistake and conceited.
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A clear wrong actor then is Putin, Russia invading? OK we agree. 'Don't stop supporting Ukraine like you said would' covers the rest. Not hard.


The fucked up thing is that people are fighting for their and their families' lives and freedom and people are bored, indifferent and making 'wise' remarks.
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As I say people are fighting now tomorrow, but people in polities that aren't Ukraine are thinking they are wise in 'stopping' the war, when that isn't an actual option for Ukraine anyway.

I'm not a military strategist, but damn right I take sides for the little it's worth. Do you not think Ukrainians want peace and normality?
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I take sides, Ukraine's. Ukrainians would love peace and normality? You agree? But they haven't got it. Not for a laugh or to be awkarwd but because they want to survive, in a country of their own.
 
You write weird, accept that people write different.

From what you say there; Russia are cunts, what they are doing is cuntish and the cunts should fuck off back to Russia. Is that where we're at?
 
Bahnhof Strasse said:
You write weird, accept that people write different.

From what you say there; Russia are cunts, what they are doing is cuntish and the cunts should fuck off back to Russia. Is that where we're at?
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I don't think I write weird. And I've had a mod warning too. But no I said what I've said. If you think that's fuck all it's up to you.
 
The39thStep said:
Brief answer Wagner was/is a PMC whose motive was/is profit Didn't recruit on any ideological basis imo although as with it may have had fascists in it, and not aligned politically to any group, unlike Azov where there is a clear political philosophy to buy into.
Utkin , whose photo is always wheeled out , was one of the founders of Wagner definitely embraced elements of Nazism , he apparently use to sign documents with an SS. His photo is always wheeled out . I might have an article on him bookmarked that I'll look for tomorrow. However, I haven't seen any evidence myself that the rest of their leadership shared his views or politicised recruits.
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The same disingenuous line that the apologists for Azov posting here use. I assume that many and perhaps most recruits into the SS were not fully signed up to Himmler's volkish esoteric Nazism. That didn't make the SS less Nazi.

Anyway, an article from the Moscow Times ( owned by a Dutch press baron who used to be a Maoist) on Neonazi Russian groups some of who fight with Ukraine others with Russia.

www.themoscowtimes.com

Explainer: Which Russian Far-Right Groups are Fighting in Ukraine? - The Moscow Times

The Russian Volunteer Corps (RVC), a Russian far-right unit fighting on the side of Ukraine, hit the headlines earlier this month after carrying out an incursion across the Russian border. The attack on Russia’s Bryansk region, in which two people were allegedly killed, was designed to...
www.themoscowtimes.com www.themoscowtimes.com
 
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Bahnhof Strasse said:
PMC - The US and Russia uses them to do their dirty-work, they are de facto branches of their government, i.e. they can't operate without their government's say-so, (or else you private jet falls from the sky). They are not the A-Team, they are part of their government's armary.

And of course Uktin's picture gets rolled out, he had SS tattoos on his body, ffs, he was 100% Nazi and fan of the Third Reich. Pretty sure that editor doesn't have similar tats, in spite of the earlier outrageous claims of his support for them cunts.
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Sometimes it’s worth stating where we agree. I wouldn’t dispute your first paragraph , Wagner’s ‘outsourced ‘ relationship abruptly ended when they initially refused the offer to become ‘in house ‘. They or some form of them are apparently recruiting for Africa at the moment .

I stated my view that Utkin was a Nazi and I think we can both agree on our belief that editor doesn’t have similar tats and that the earth isn’t flat .
 
The39thStep said:
Sometimes it’s worth stating where we agree. I wouldn’t dispute your first paragraph , Wagner’s ‘outsourced ‘ relationship abruptly ended when they initially refused the offer to become ‘in house ‘. They or some form of them are apparently recruiting for Africa at the moment .

I stated my view that Utkin was a Nazi and I think we can both agree on our belief that editor doesn’t have similar tats and that the earth isn’t flat .
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The relationship ended when Wagner attempted a coup during which they occupied Rostov and then marched halfway to Moscow, after which the regime had Prizoghin, who liked bombastic opera, looking,and dressing up, but whose Nazism you seem to question, was blown up mid flight.
 
tim said:
The relationship ended when Wagner attempted a coup during which they occupied Rostov and then marched halfway to Moscow, after which the regime had Prizoghin, who liked bombastic opera, looking,and dressing up, but whose Nazism you seem to question, was blown up mid flight.
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The move to in-house Wagner was actually the reason for Prizoghin's road trip.
 
tim said:
The same disingenuous line that the apologists for Azov posting here use. I assume that many and perhaps most recruits into the SS were not fully signed up to Himmler's volkish esoteric Nazism. That didn't make the SS less Nazi.

Anyway, an article from the Moscow Times ( owned by a Dutch press baron who used to be a Maoist) on Neonazi Russian groups some of who fight with Ukraine others with Russia.

www.themoscowtimes.com

Explainer: Which Russian Far-Right Groups are Fighting in Ukraine? - The Moscow Times

The Russian Volunteer Corps (RVC), a Russian far-right unit fighting on the side of Ukraine, hit the headlines earlier this month after carrying out an incursion across the Russian border. The attack on Russia’s Bryansk region, in which two people were allegedly killed, was designed to...
www.themoscowtimes.com www.themoscowtimes.com
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SS recruits of course had to give the 'Hitler Oath'.
If you can give some examples of the 'disingenuous line that the apologists for Azov posting on here use' I'd be happy to reflect.
Michael Colborne's excellent book from The Fires of War covers both Azov's political philosophy, its political alliances and structures and he also maps out the links between Azov and the Neo Nazi Russian groups you mention. He has also written on Rusich which was the main Nazi group within Wagner
 
Pickman's model said:
those may be camo on top but their treads will leave a plain trail for any tyro combat spoorologist Defense Technical Information Center or Tactical Tracking Operations: The Essential Guide for Military and Police Trackers - Paladin Press : David Scott-Donelan : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
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I think any tyro combat spoorologist (every days a school day) will be reassured that the tracks are just someone pottering round the garden or out looking for their cat, rather than the glistening tip of the British Army spear*.

*Feel free to use me as a reference kebabking
 
discokermit said:
kinda what i was saying. there are some similarities, our government supports israel and ukraine but obviously russia isnt poor oppressed palestine, so no, you can't really compare the two.
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Here's an Israeli I know comparing Russia with Hamas and Israel with Ukraine (published december 2023):

Article said:
Israel and Ukraine are both democracies, in which the executive branch of government is chosen upon free and fair elections.

Both Israel and Ukraine were attacked by a brutal, merciless, autocratic regime that disregard international law, conventions, human rights, and humanitarian principles.

Both the Putin regime and Hamas are hell bent on a messianic mission to “liberate territories”, essentially embarking on expansionist land grab, domination, unbridled aggression and do not shy from mass slaughter of anyone who stand in their way, be it their own and certainly their enemy, on their path for control and domination.

Both Hamas and the Putin regime loath western ideals of democracy, free speech, human rights, gender equality and liberal principles, yet both are making the most of cynically using western media, sensitivities in public opinion, as tools to achieve their sinister, chauvinistic, and extreme objectives.

Both Hamas and the Putin regime are seeking to extend their messianic influence far beyond the focal point of current conflict (i.e. Israel and Ukraine) and stretch their vision of domination to other regions.

A victory for Putin and/or Hamas, or even the perception of victory, would have a devastating effect on world peace and stability. Such outcomes could shake the defensive lines of liberal democracies around the world and the status quo of the rule-based world order formulated post-World War II and strengthened at the end of the Cold War in the early 90’s.

In both raging conflicts, Israel and Ukraine, liberal democracies around the world must make a firm stand – unwavering support for their fellow democracies fighting an existential asymmetric war against a brutal enemy that does not abide by the same regulations as democracies do. Because going half a mile will only invite additional aggression, chaos, suffering, death, and destruction.
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I seriously disagree with this comparison (I've already outlined the comparison I'd draw)

edited to add quote.
 
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