Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
that's three good points you've made
Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24
- Thread starter kebabking
- Start date
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
microdots full of unexpected magic
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I'm not saying that you were arguing that there aren't fascist groups in the Ukrainian military. It would be a pointless task in any case. You were saying that there were no bespoke units since the beginning of the war however both Kraken, the 3rd Assault and others were formed by Azov members late summer 2022.
Azov's history has become contested only since the war. It doesn't particularly matter that it isn't neo-Nazi, it's a far-right Nationalist group whose sizeable armed membership cosplays many elements of fascism. The Right Sector are direct descendants of Bandera .
I'd agree with you that there are fascist groupings in every military, Germany would be a better example in Western Europe. However, the size, political maturity, connections and normalisation of Azov and the Right Sector are head and shoulders above anywhere else.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
yes.
Ax^
Silly Rabbit
so just to clarify this is the reason you think Russia was justified in starting the current war in Ukraine.
denazification of the country ?
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Head and shoulders above Wagner at its recent peak?
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The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
so just to clarify this is the reason you think Russia was justified in starting the current war in Ukraine.
denazification of the country ?
I know you like to join in on the politics threads however, I would recommend that in order to get the best or at least a fuller experience that you might want to not just write posts but also read what the person you are replying to has previously written ?
editor
hiraethified
They're a truly horrific group of particularly brutal war criminals.
Mali: New Atrocities by Malian Army, Apparent Wagner Fighters
Malian armed forces and foreign fighters apparently from the Russia-linked Wagner Group have summarily executed and forcibly disappeared several dozen civilians in Mali’s central region since December 2022.
Human Rights Watch Statement on the Situation in Russia
“As tensions between Russia's Defense Ministry and the Wagner group escalate in southwest Russia, both sides should take all necessary measures to avoid harming the general population. Recent atrocities by Russian forces in Ukraine and Syria and by Wagner forces in Ukraine, Mali, and the Central...
Ax^
Silly Rabbit
I'll ask you the same question in a few pages when you give a history of the Azov brigade once again
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Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
They're a truly horrific group of particularly brutal war criminals.
Mali: New Atrocities by Malian Army, Apparent Wagner Fighters
Malian armed forces and foreign fighters apparently from the Russia-linked Wagner Group have summarily executed and forcibly disappeared several dozen civilians in Mali’s central region since December 2022.www.hrw.org
Human Rights Watch Statement on the Situation in Russia
“As tensions between Russia's Defense Ministry and the Wagner group escalate in southwest Russia, both sides should take all necessary measures to avoid harming the general population. Recent atrocities by Russian forces in Ukraine and Syria and by Wagner forces in Ukraine, Mali, and the Central...hrw.org
They chose their name as Wagner was Hitler’s favourite composer, ffs. Still, fash in the Azov, etc.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Brief answer Wagner was/is a PMC whose motive was/is profit Didn't recruit on any ideological basis imo although as with it may have had fascists in it, and not aligned politically to any group, unlike Azov where there is a clear political philosophy to buy into.
Utkin , whose photo is always wheeled out , was one of the founders of Wagner definitely embraced elements of Nazism , he apparently use to sign documents with an SS. His photo is always wheeled out . I might have an article on him bookmarked that I'll look for tomorrow. However, I haven't seen any evidence myself that the rest of their leadership shared his views or politicised recruits.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
I believe it was the code-name or nom de guerre of the other founder who wasn't Prigozhin.
Still undoubtedly not chosen at random, I guess.
editor
hiraethified
If your country has been illegally invaded, your wife and children are being raped, your home plundered and family members murdered in front of your eyes, I don't think it makes that much of a difference if they like to wear Nazi badges or not. It all amounts to the same horrific catalogue of war crimes.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
PMC - The US and Russia uses them to do their dirty-work, they are de facto branches of their government, i.e. they can't operate without their government's say-so, (or else you private jet falls from the sky). They are not the A-Team, they are part of their government's armary.
And of course Uktin's picture gets rolled out, he had SS tattoos on his body, ffs, he was 100% Nazi and fan of the Third Reich. Pretty sure that editor doesn't have similar tats, in spite of the earlier outrageous claims of his support for them cunts.
Humberto
Callooh! Callay!
I get the argument I think, that if the lines aren't going to change then 'we' should avoid the needless additional deaths. And in that case Ukraine's supporters (USA and others including more relevantly on here the UK) should encourage the Ukrainian government to jack it in. But the governments of the US and UK and others promised to back them and Ukranians still fight.
Call it jingoism if you want, but there's a clear wrong actor here, and a country trying to survive. It was always going to be an uncertain outcome, and pretty soon it became clear it would be drawn out. But I think to wring your hands and betray that promise is a mistake and conceited.
The fucked up thing is that people are fighting for their and their families' lives and freedom and people are bored, indifferent and making 'wise' remarks.
I'm not a military strategist, but damn right I take sides for the little it's worth. Do you not think Ukrainians want peace and normality?
Call it jingoism if you want, but there's a clear wrong actor here, and a country trying to survive. It was always going to be an uncertain outcome, and pretty soon it became clear it would be drawn out. But I think to wring your hands and betray that promise is a mistake and conceited.
The fucked up thing is that people are fighting for their and their families' lives and freedom and people are bored, indifferent and making 'wise' remarks.
I'm not a military strategist, but damn right I take sides for the little it's worth. Do you not think Ukrainians want peace and normality?
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
No, you don't.
Yes they absolutely do. What they do not want is to be any part of Russia, let alone a sub-par part of Russia, which is what Putin is promising for them and all that any negotiations will end with.
Ukraine was (slowly) moving west, this shit takes time, but that was the direction of travel. Russia is a kleptocracy which promises its citizens much but gives them fuck all, a couple of them get super-yachts, the other nearly 200m people live in abject poverty and that will never change under the current regime.
A large, (size much bigger than the UK, population almost the same as the UK's) neighbour, where a huge proportion of the population has links to Russia becoming wealthy and enjoying freedoms, that's too much for Putin and his band of thieves, cos that kind of shit can cause discontent in their subjugated population, so needs to be stamped out.
Come up with bollocks like Nazis and satanists as your reasoning and off you go.
Ukraine and its people are fighting for their country and their survival. Russia does not want to take it under their wing and look after it, they want to destroy it.
Humberto
Callooh! Callay!
Which is what I said you total muppet. Fuck off.
Ax^
Silly Rabbit
hmm Humberto not sure if it was deliberate or not but you post kinda gives 2 different angles on the argument
do i think the people of Ukraine want peace and Normality aye i do
but like any nation do they want to give away their identify and freedoms just for a new normality under russian control
i think not and i'd support them as long as they are willing to keep fighting
do i think the people of Ukraine want peace and Normality aye i do
but like any nation do they want to give away their identify and freedoms just for a new normality under russian control
i think not and i'd support them as long as they are willing to keep fighting
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
No you didn't. And try dialing down the aggression.
Humberto
Callooh! Callay!
I will mate sorry. But you lost the thread. Man feelings.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Ukraine does not take orders from the US or UK, they are resigned to the fluctuating levels of supports they may receive and are prepared to give it their best shot if they have to go 100% alone. This is an existential threat to their country, it is not a game.
Fuck knows what you are wibbling about lost the thread and Man feelings though.
Fuck knows what you are wibbling about lost the thread and Man feelings though.
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