Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Pickman's model]

Russia being the aggressor has precisely fuck-all to do with the number of Nazis in their army or indeed Ukraine's. TC and Ed have both been accusing the other of tolerating fascists here and in both cases it's bloody childish.

I've never come across children accusing their peers of tolerating fascism, whatever it is it's certainly not childish

 

[discokermit]

they aren't the defining or even a particularly important decision-making factor in the respective leaderships.

i dunno about that.

 

[Rob Ray]

I've never come across children accusing their peers of tolerating fascism, whatever it is it's certainly not childish

(I was actually editing to note I know children who'd not do it as you were posting)

 

[Pickman's model]

(I was actually editing to note I know children who'd not do it as you were posting)

It's perhaps more adolescent as you suggest in your earlier post

 

[Rob Ray]

i dunno about that.

Then this is one of those times when I say you're talking crap, tbh.

 

[TopCat]

Operators at nuclear plant says another drone downed, falls on roof​

The Russian-controlled Zaporizhzhia nuclear power station has just announced that another drone was shot down over the roof of reactor number six, according to the Reuters news agency.

“Today, a kamikaze drone was shot down over the plant. It fell on the roof of Unit 6,” the plant said, below a picture of reactor No. 6.

Reactor number six is now shut down, according to the plant.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is totally unacceptable, vile personal abuse that totally crosses the line of decency. You should be utterly ashamed of yourself.

It's a stretch to say the waffen ss took part in most of the major campaigns of ww2, they didn't fight anywhere east of the volga for a start so missing out the entire Pacific war

 

[TopCat]

This is totally unacceptable, vile personal abuse that totally crosses the line of decency. You should be utterly ashamed of yourself.

Do you not know of the waffen SS in Ukraine and the Azov brigade who celebrate them? I can only think ignorance on your part drove the explainer quote you posted about the waffen SS.

 

[discokermit]

Then this is one of those times when I say you're talking crap, tbh.

thats your opinion. but i think the fascists in ukraine hold a fair bit of power. they have their own military units and nearly every time you see an official being interviewed in their office they have a picture of bandera on the wall behind them. they arent running the show but they have some power.

 

[editor]

Do you not know of the waffen SS in Ukraine and the Azov brigade who celebrate them? I can only think ignorance on your part drove the explainer quote you posted about the waffen SS.

I don't want to hear your shit anymore and seeing as you failed miserably to stick to your promise of putting me on ignore, I'll make it easier and put us both on mutual ignore for three months.

Bye.

 

[Rob Ray]

thats your opinion. but i think the fascists in ukraine hold a fair bit of power. they have their own military units and nearly every time you see an official being interviewed in their office they have a picture of bandera on the wall behind them. they arent running the show but they have some power.

Afaik they've not had bespoke units since the very beginning of the war, but even if they do, both sides would be at it, conflict prosecuted by governments is about expediency, and plonking a fascist unit at the front lines guarantees a motivated fighting force. As for portraits, apply the same logic to Makhno and you'd have the most anarchist country on Earth. Sadly it ain't so, he's just a vague symbol of resistance.

 

[discokermit]

Afaik they've not had bespoke units since the very beginning of the war, but even if they do, both sides would be at it, war prosecuted by governments is about expediency, and plonking a fascist unit at the front lines guarantees a motivated fighting force. As for portraits, apply the same logic to Makhno and you'd have the most anarchist country on Earth.

where have you been seeing portraits of makhno?

 

[a_chap]

Russia reports Ukraine attacking their nuclear reactors with drones. But all incoming drones shot down. Reactor 6 shut down because a kamikaze drone (which was definitely shot down) still just happened to land on the reactor roof.

Me, I believe every single word Mr Putin.

 

[Rob Ray]

There was a campaign to link him to Ukrainian national pride even before the war - TV show, that sort of thing - and it accelerated after. He's pretty well known.

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't want to hear your shit anymore and seeing as you failed miserably to stick to your promise of putting me on ignore, I'll make it easier and put us both on mutual ignore for three months.

Bye.

Soz, when was this promise made?

 

[Ax^]

hmm so logic of the thread seems to be whatever is going on we loop back to well the Ukraine army are Nazis ...

ok

 

[emanymton]

If someone on the gaza thread was repeatedly posting criticisms of the Palestinians, never utterd a word of criticism of Israel and cheered on Israels military success. What conclusion would you draw about what side they were on?

Seriously the double standards on this pisses me off.

littlebabyjesus sorry but I just to return to this as the double standards on this gets under my skin. I don't want to seem like I'm calling you out or anything but I thought I remember similar things in the Gaza thread and found the below exchange in just a couple of minutes.

So i really don't get why it is considered okay to call someone an apologist for war crimes following these pretty tame comments but calling out people actively celebrating Russian military success as supporters of Russia is somehow unacceptable.

I really cannot warp my head around it

Again n9t calling you out or demanding a response or anything. Just want to document it in the thread for my own sake.

Currently there are three versions:

1. Israel purposely attacked it
2. Hamas have placed C&C in hospitals which Israel attacked
3. A Hamas rocket was partially intercepted with the remainder causing the explosion in the hospital

One and two are the same. Three is junk.

In outcome but not in how it’ll play out politically.

Going on how military tech and targeting can work that’s not correct.

Listen to yourself ffs.

Get a grip. If we can’t discuss these things without losing ourselves in the emotion of it all the time we’ll get nowhere.

You're an apologist for war crimes. For mass murder. How the fuck can emotion not be involved.

 

[Pickman's model]

hmm so logic of the thread seems to be whatever is going on we loop back to well the Ukraine army are Nazis ...

ok

That's a grand strawman you've built there.

 

[mojo pixy]

littlebabyjesus sorry but I just to return to this as the double standards on this gets under my skin. I don't want to seem like I'm calling you out or anything but I thought I remember similar things in the Gaza thread and found the below exchange in just a couple of minutes.

So i really don't get why it is considered okay to call someone an apologist for war crimes following these pretty tame comments but calling out people actively celebrating Russian military success as supporters of Russia is somehow unacceptable.

I really cannot warp my head around it

It's been asserted that

It’s not like Gaza at all.

But as yet, this hasn't really been expanded upon.

 

[The39thStep]

Afaik they've not had bespoke units since the very beginning of the war, but even if they do, both sides would be at it, conflict prosecuted by governments is about expediency, and plonking a fascist unit at the front lines guarantees a motivated fighting force. As for portraits, apply the same logic to Makhno and you'd have the most anarchist country on Earth. Sadly it ain't so, he's just a vague symbol of resistance.

Azov;s 12th National Guard has recently and successfully been in action around Kreminna capturing a Russian tank.
The 3rd Assault Brigade is led by Andriy Biletsky was forced to retreat from Avdiivka but is still in the region on defensive duties . NAFO are fundraising for them currently.
The Kraken Regiment which reports to the DIU was founded by Azov and is commanded by an Azov member is currently to the West of Avdiiivka.

The Right Sector are mainly in the 67th Mechanized Brigade , their 'crack 'unit is the Da Vinci Wolves

 

[tim]

just the way you tend to fall for the official narrative straight away on a regular basis. such as the jimmy savile affair.

Now then; now then!

 

[Ax^]

That's a grand strawman you've built there.

pick I'm observing the overall flow of the thread within the last 10 pages or so ..

not a strawman just an observation thank you

 

[discokermit]

It's been asserted that



But as yet, this hasn't really been expanded upon.

there are some similarities. iran supplies palestine with weapons and also russia. nato countries supply ukraine with weapons and also israel. apart from that it doesn't really work.

 

[mojo pixy]

. . .

 

[mojo pixy]

I'm not sure you've really proved anything there

 

[Rob Ray]

Azov;s 12th National Guard has recently and successfully been in action around Kreminna capturing a Russian tank.
The 3rd Assault Brigade is led by Andriy Biletsky was forced to retreat from Avdiivka but is still in the region on defensive duties . NAFO are fundraising for them currently.
The Kraken Regiment which reports to the DIU was founded by Azov and is commanded by an Azov member is currently to the West of Avdiiivka.

The Right Sector are mainly in the 67th Mechanized Brigade , their 'crack 'unit is the Da Vinci Wolves

I've no doubt fascists have influence in some units, and are indeed probably to one degree or another still in Azov, but it's worth noting that the Brigade passed its NeoNazi heyday in the mid-2010s, was incorporated into the National Guard, was "officially" de-radicalised (for whatever that's worth) and as a unit publicly denounced fascism as a "tireless need to exterminate those who dared to be free" in March 2022. Exactly what that adds up to and how far it can be trusted seems to be heavily debated, but it's not as axiomatic or simple as is sometimes made out afaics. Again though, I'm not arguing whether there's active fascist groupings in the Ukrainian military, I'm rather arguing there's fascist groupings in every military. Including Britain's.

 

[discokermit]

I'm not sure you've really proved anything there

you didnt say prove anything. you said expand upon.

 

[mojo pixy]

you didnt say prove anything. you said expand upon.

Yes and it still hasn't been, as far as I can tell. Weapons come from overseas isn't much of an insight. Especially as it's Iran supplying Russia and Hamas, while the US and EU are supplying Ukraine and Israel.

Hold on, is that your angle? US-EU = bad / Iran-Russia = good? Therefore Ukraine is like Israel and Russia is the poor oppressed Palestine?

 

[discokermit]

Yes and it still hasn't been, as far as I can tell. Weapons come from overseas isn't much of an insight. Especially as it's Iran supplying Russia and Hamas, while the US and EU are supplying Ukraine and Israel.

Hold on, is that your angle? US-EU = bad / Iran-Russia = good? Therefore Ukraine is like Israel and Russia is the poor oppressed Palestine?

kinda what i was saying. there are some similarities, our government supports israel and ukraine but obviously russia isnt poor oppressed palestine, so no, you can't really compare the two.

 

[mojo pixy]

kinda what i was saying. there are some similarities, our government supports israel and ukraine but obviously russia isnt poor oppressed palestine, so no, you can't really compare the two.

Not if you're going to approach it that way, no.

If you look at it as a smaller, weaker nation being attacked by a larger, more powerful neighbour that does not recognize its autonomy and considers its independence a threat, the equivalence is considerably clearer.