Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Silas Loom]

Both sides of this thread have been prone to making, imv, stupid accusations about the other's lack of care for civilians. In neither case is it true, and frankly a lot of you should dial this shit back imv. It's a disagreement over what's best in which we are all horrified bystanders, no-one here is a monster.

Bothsiding the Russian invasion of Ukraine is taking a side, and it’s the wrong one.

 

[kabbes]

the real headbangers here don't bother to disguise their glee at Russian advances

This is without doubt a source of a lot of the friction. Anybody that genuinely has the reduction of suffering at the forefront of their agenda could not possibly be pleased at any Russian advance. A stalemate is better than that, frankly. The tone of delight at times that the Russians have managed to take a town is fundamentally antagonistic.

 

[Pickman's model]

Of course it is, but allowing Ukraine to become a Russian vassal or to be totally annexed by Russia will not lead to fewer people dying in the long term, and it seems that is effectively what some people here are suggesting as a solution - the softer apologists for Russia suggest Russia's peace plan as a solution which would leave Ukraine a vassal, and the real headbangers here don't bother to disguise their glee at Russian advances so seemingly want to see annexation.

In the long run we're all dead
--j.m. keynes

 

[andysays]

“Wouldn’t it be nice if everybody was nice” isn’t really an answer, though. There is a reality, which is that a fascist state decided to invade and then rape, murder and kidnap its way through the invaded country. Furthermore, attempts to appease this fascist state by letting it have land have (several times over ) already previously demonstrated the failure of this policy.

So given that reality, merely saying “I wish they wouldn’t do that” doesn’t really cut it. You need to think about how and why the actions you propose would lead to a lasting better outcome. How is “give up and let them have this land without any concessions” better for the invaded people? And that includes asking how it deals with the legitimisation of their suffering — failure to recognise such crimes inevitably results in the perpetuation of suffering down generations.

I agree with the thinking behind this post, but in terms of the practicalities behind this position (and I'm talking about the general position, not asking you personally) how can this be achieved?

"The West" can continue to support Ukraine in the way it has been doing, but (despite initial optimism, some of which was frankly unrealistic) that level of support doesn't appear to be enough for Ukraine's armed forces to push the invading Russians back to their original border, or to force anything resembling concessions from the invading state.

So it appears that in order to achieve anything like a defeat and restoration of what most of us would consider a just peace, it's necessary for the level of support to be significantly increased, certainly in terms of arms and equipment, and potentially in actual deployment of NATO forces.

And given that the West doesn't seem prepared to do that*, the only option other than some sort of negotiated peace, however imperfect that would be, is that the war will continue indefinitely with no significant gains for either side, but with prolonged death and destruction.

Those saying "Ukraine should keep fighting and not consider any attempts at a negotiated peace" need to recognise this honestly, and acknowledge that it isn't really a full answer to the invasion.

* and putting aside for the moment the possible consequences of that sort of escalation.

 

[Pickman's model]

Letting Russia keep the land it has stolen validates war as a strategy. It’s a clear cut pro-war position, that war should be rewarded.

How do you think the borders of eg European countries were arrived at? Do you think they descended from the heavens? Have you never seen a map of Europe in 1815, for example, and compared it to say the current map?

 

[Elpenor]

Bothsiding the Russian invasion of Ukraine is taking a side, and it’s the wrong one.

Words that recall George W Bush “either with us or against us”, can I ask if he is a political inspiration to you?

 

[Rob Ray]

Bothsiding the Russian invasion of Ukraine is taking a side, and it’s the wrong one.

So argue on where you think they're wrong, as I have done repeatedly on this thread while managing not to simultaneously dehumanise and insult their motives and characters. Do you think doing so brings them a single step closer to changing their minds? Or does it rather box them into a hardened position?

 

[krtek a houby]

Both sides of this thread have been prone to making, imv, stupid accusations about the other's lack of care for civilians. In neither case is it true, and frankly a lot of you should dial this shit back imv. It's a disagreement over what's best in which we are all horrified bystanders, no-one here is a monster.

Very fine people on both sides.

 

[Rob Ray]

Very fine people on both sides.

Oh do dry up. I've been very clear on my own views throughout this thread, and have repeatedly criticised the "give him want he wants" position. The fact you're going straight to this sort of shit simply because I'm not giddily joining in the denunciations rather proves my point tbh.

 

[emanymton]

Those saying "Ukraine should keep fighting and not consider any attempts at a negotiated peace" need to recognise this honestly, and acknowledge that it isn't really a full answer to the invasion.

This is a complete strawman, no one holds this position.

 

[krtek a houby]

Oh do dry up. I've been very clear on my own views throughout this thread.

It's a shame to see imperialism being excused for on urban.

If your country was invaded by, say, France - would you just accept it? Would defending the country be wrong?

(And no, am not ignoring Ukrainian far right who need sorting out)

 

[Rob Ray]

It's a shame to see imperialism being excused for on urban.

If your country was invaded by, say, France - would you just accept it? Would defending the country be wrong?

(And no, am not ignoring Ukrainian far right who need sorting out)

Maybe look at my actual contributions eh? In which I have consistently argued the case for Ukrainian self-defence and for backing the analysis of Ukrainian anarchists and have taken a great deal of shit for doing so.

 

[tim]

They’ve emptied the jails, disproportionately conscripted people from eastern regions, and now recruiting from Nepal, Syria and some African nations. Anything to keep the blood of ‘pure’ Russians from St Petersberg etc. from being spilled.

The British army has been recruiting from Nepal for two centuries and has a current tradition of recruiting significant numbers of troop from Fiji and other former places that it invaded occupied and robbed. They do so for the same reason as the Russians do; the poorer you are, the more willing you are to voluntarily put your life at risk to guarantee yourself and your dependents a better quality of life.
The French behave similarly. The USA, perhaps, have the "advantage" of a huge impoverish underclass, particularly in the Southern states and particularly Latinos and African-Americans

Communities Fiji Britain

#

www.cfb.org.uk

 

[krtek a houby]

So argue on where you think they're wrong, as I have done repeatedly on this thread while managing not to simultaneously dehumanise and insult their motives and characters. Do you think doing so brings them a single step closer to changing their minds? Or does it rather box them into a hardened position?

Patronising fence sitting wishy washy high horse liberal nonsense.

Fwiw, I try to keep my contributions to a minimum on this topic but it's causing so many normally balanced posters to take the weirdest of positions on this - it's frankly astonishing.

 

[Yossarian]

How do you think the borders of eg European countries were arrived at? Do you think they descended from the heavens? Have you never seen a map of Europe in 1815, for example, and compared it to say the current ap?

That system of relatively fluid borders that could be changed through military force didn't work out so well, IIRC

 

[Rob Ray]

Patronising fence sitting wishy washy high horse liberal nonsense.

Fwiw, I try to keep my contributions to a minimum on this topic but it's causing so many normally balanced posters to take the weirdest of positions on this - it's frankly astonishing.

For the third time, I've not sat on the fence. I've very specifically taken a side which is fairly close to yours. What I've suggested is that you stop acting like a massive judgemental bellend, a request you have spectacularly failed on, while showcasing my broader point, by leaping at my throat on a false assumption.

 

[redsquirrel]

Much of the 'both siding' criticism rests on a fundamental liberal statist assumption - that the conflict is, can only, be described in terms of Russia vs Ukraine (+ NATO/EU).

That is nonsense for my politics. I recognise that the Ukrainian state is a lesser evil compared to the Russian state.
But my 'side', the side of any socialist, is the working class whether they are Ukrainian, Russian, American, Brits, etc against capital and states. I don't "'support"* either the Russian or Ukrainian state. Indeed I'd like to see both Russian and Ukrainian workers expand their power at the expense of their respective capitals and states**.

*I'd also argue that very few on this thread do really, support has to mean something more than just a wish for nice things or posting stuff on twitter/a board
**And as part of the group that I'm a member of we have provided, admittedly limited, some support for groups that are engaged in the class struggle.

 

[krtek a houby]

For the third time, I've not sat on the fence. I've very specifically taken a side which is fairly close to yours. What I've suggested is that you stop acting like a massive judgemental bellend, a twist you have spectacularly failed on.

Good for you. You're clearly more forgiving of others. There's been shock and surprise, rather than "judgement".

 

[The39thStep]

They’ve emptied the jails, disproportionately conscripted people from eastern regions, and now recruiting from Nepal, Syria and some African nations. Anything to keep the blood of ‘pure’ Russians from St Petersberg etc. from being spilled.

It could be argued that the recruitment of overseas fighters /mercenaries on both sides has been a feature of both 2014 and this war. The difference, as you describe for Russia although this is also applicable to Ukraine, is that it is now transcontinental rather than European.

It's mainly economic reasons that are driving this mass volunteering/recruitment, aside from the Americans which seem to be more ideological, which in itself is a tragedy. The Indian subcontinent is mainly being highlighted at the moment with those enlisting for Russia however Ukraine has recruited soldiers from South America for the last couple of years.

Regarding 'pure Russians ' recruitment Reuters reported a couple of days ago "In a statement, the Russian defence ministry said more than 100,000 people have signed contracts with the armed forces since the start of the year, including about 16,000 in the past 10 days alone." ( obviously the pinch of salt caveat applies)

 

[Pickman's model]

That system of relatively fluid borders that could be changed through military force didn't work out so well, IIRC

I think you're having a laugh if you think those days are over

 

[Rob Ray]

Good for you. You're clearly more forgiving of others. There's been shock and surprise, rather than "judgement".

It's not a matter of forgiveness, it's a matter of putting your knee jerk assumptions aside for long enough to try and understand where people are actually coming from. They aren't positions, they're people.

 

[krtek a houby]

It's not a matter of forgiveness, it's a matter of putting your knee jerk assumptions aside for long enough to try and understand where people are actually coming from. They aren't positions, they're people.

Yes, we're all people here. In which case, perhaps you need to understand where the people who oppose a big imperialist power invading a small nation are coming from, too?

Obviously nobody wants wars or Nazis. That's a given.

 

[emanymton]

So argue on where you think they're wrong, as I have done repeatedly on this thread while managing not to simultaneously dehumanise and insult their motives and characters. Do you think doing so brings them a single step closer to changing their minds? Or does it rather box them into a hardened position?

Sorry but this is nonsense. People are actively pushing a far right positions and support a brutal imperialist war. To take a both sides are as bad line makes you look pretty shit. What ever happened to no platforming far right supporters? And again this is massive double standards no one would tolerate this shit about Israel.

 

[emanymton]

It's not a matter of forgiveness, it's a matter of putting your knee jerk assumptions aside for long enough to try and understand where people are actually coming from. They aren't positions, they're people.

Oh I understand where they are comming from. That's the problem!

 

[emanymton]

Yes, we're all people here. In which case, perhaps you need to understand where the people who oppose a big imperialist power invading a small nation are coming from, too?

Obviously nobody wants wars or Nazis. That's a given.

Sadly the last line is not a given there are several posters on this thread who do want that and are being given a free pass on it by others.

 

[Yossarian]

I think pretty much everyone here was against the American invasion of Iraq, there'd be even more unity if a far-right American government decided to conquer Mexico, but when the Russians pull the same kind of shit it's all 1815 this and Azov that and "You're pro-war" and "How on earth could anybody be against trading land for peace?"

 

[krtek a houby]

Sadly the last line is not a given there are several posters on this thread who do want that and are being given a free pass on it by others.

Wouldn't go that far, tbh.

 

[Rob Ray]

Sorry but this is nonsense. People are actively pushing a far right positions and support a brutal imperialist war. To take a both sides are as bad line makes you look pretty shit. What ever happened to no platforming far right supporters? And again this is massive double standards no one would tolerate this shit about Israel.

Afaik nobody on this thread is even close to far right and suggesting they are is idiotic. Neither are they proactively imperialist (you can certainly argue they de facto are, but that's not the same thing). Most of them come from a nwbtcw perspective, which I have myself argued extensively does not work here, but draws from the exact opposite perspective to the one you're merrily laying on them.

And to be clear, given the abject state of your "analysis" here I really couldn't give the slightest of damns about your judgment of me.

 

[redsquirrel]

Oh I understand where they are comming from. That's the problem!

I respect you emanymton and I even share some of your criticisms of Elpenor's position. But I think you are way off the mark and being pretty unfair on calling them (and possibly some others) far right.

Certainly calling for negotiations is being done by the far right, but there are other political positions that can also see a negotiated end as the best outcome (pacifism for instance)

 

[andysays]

This is a complete strawman, no one holds this position.

You may have outlined a nuanced position which explains how some sort of just peace similar to that kabbes outlined might be achieved, but if so I've missed it.

Your posts, at least the recent ones, seem to be more unwarranted attack like this load of nonsense.

Yes, the Vietnamese should have just let America win so it was over sooner and all thos pro-war people who protested against the war where idiots and should have wanted more bombs dropped to end the war sooner.

You aresupporting mass murder, rape and torture. For you to try and claim others are the pro-war ones is absolutely disgusting, just fucking vile and on top of that well in your way down the conspiracy tabbit hole. I wouldn't be surprised if you support Trump as well

But perhaps you could take this opportunity to summarise your suggestions for how such a peace could be achieved, or even a link to your previous posts addressing this point.