Spion
I hear ya
especially with the latest guidance systems
So why does Israel do what it does?
- Thread starter durruti02
- Start date
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Yep and as per my edit above, that advanced guidance shouldn't be taken to support Israeli PR claims that they are 'surgically targetting' only Hamas fighters.
Given the power of the weapons being used, and the population density of say Gaza City, they can't fail to kill loads of innocent civilians with these tactics. Which makes it a war crime under the 'proportionality' terms of the Geneva Conventions.
What the advanced guidance does imply is that when they blow up civilian infrastructure and especially when they blow up medical or other 'protected' facilities under the Geneva Conventions, they are committing intentional war-crimes under the terms that protect key civilian infrastructure, with special reference to medical facilities.
Given the power of the weapons being used, and the population density of say Gaza City, they can't fail to kill loads of innocent civilians with these tactics. Which makes it a war crime under the 'proportionality' terms of the Geneva Conventions.
What the advanced guidance does imply is that when they blow up civilian infrastructure and especially when they blow up medical or other 'protected' facilities under the Geneva Conventions, they are committing intentional war-crimes under the terms that protect key civilian infrastructure, with special reference to medical facilities.
I woudn't exactly call the Sderot and Beersheba agricultural areas.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
How does the population density of the area in which the Quassam rounds might fall compare to that of the area in which an F-16 is going to hit in Gaza city?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
As I said on the "Israel in coordinated missile attacks..." thread yesterday, given the choice between having 8-10 Qassams rained down on my abode, or having a single missile from the payload of an F15 fired at it, I'd choose the Qassams every time, especially given the 40% failure rate.
The fact that Qassams are being (ineffectively) fired into the territory of the state of Israel is being used as an excuse for the murder of Palestinian civilians, no more, no less. Your figures show that the state of Israel has no interest in proportionality, and (yet again) a healthy interest in collective punishment.
Agreed that the population density is less but if there was any other way of dealing with a genocidal group like Hamas other than bombing them then I would support it.
If jaw jaw had worked then we woudn't be in this situation.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Of course, it should be borne in mind that a guidance system that can home a missile in to a target the size of a tea-plate is all very well, but doesn't help to mitigate "collateral damage" when the payload is large enough to destroy 3-4 houses either side of the intended target.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Yep. It's not just a lack of regard for civilian deaths, when you put it together with the attacks on civilian infrastructure and the embargo on food, medicines and other essential supplies. It's at the very least collective punishment but arguably it goes further.
Here's a quote from the guy who first coined the term 'Genocide' ...
Now, if we're going to throw words like 'genocide' around, let's take a close look at whose behaviour is actually more consistent with that description.
Here's a quote from the guy who first coined the term 'Genocide' ...
Axis Rule in Occupied Europe: Raphael Lemkin
Now, if we're going to throw words like 'genocide' around, let's take a close look at whose behaviour is actually more consistent with that description.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Absolutely.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
The southernmost part of Israel has a mean pop density of 73 people per square kilometer (figure for 2008 from the Jewish Virtual library's "Society and Culture" section), with density in towns and cities maxing out at around 180 per sq km.
The Gaza strip's mean population density is 4,270 people per square kilometer (Encarta online), so around 26 times denser than the most densely populated "target zone" in which the Qassams and Grads can fall.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
HAMAS are a "genocidal group" how exactly?
You see, try as I might, I haven't been able to turn up any acts of genocide that HAMAS has committed.
Accuse them all you like of being Judaeophobic, of wanting to wipe the state of Israel off the map, but do please keep your whining mouth shut with accusations like that unless you can substantiate them, because at the moment you sound like a fifth-rate Alan Dershowitz manque suffering from an attack of intellectual constipation allied to verbal diarrhoea.
Quite right.
Such a shame that the state of Israel, with the backing of the various administrations in the USA, has never taken peace talks and the like seriously then, isn't it? What with them preferring to use ongoing negotiations as a screen for establishing their "facts on the ground".
Spion
I hear ya
I've been looking into these 'Grads' that the Palestinians are supposed to have. The Grad is actually a full truck-mounted system, the BM-21. While it is hypothetically *possible* there are Grads in Gaza because Egypt makes and uses them, the chances of a truck mounted rocket system being able to fire and even once escape Israeli airborne counter battery is minimal, IMO.
This is a Grad. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=p-lGwyySrwY If the Gazans had these then Sderot would be halfway to rubble by now.
Also, Katyusha, which seems to get bandied about all over the place is a generic term which is applied to anything from crude home made rockets through to Russian, Iranian etc built missiles.
I'm sure you know all this, being a services man, but I thought I'd point it out on the thread.
Anyway, someone needs to do a bit of research into the myths that are propogated about these rockets. Suggesting they are 'Grads' or 'Katyushas' - and that they are therefore foreign supplied and more sophisticated - seems like spin to me
They want to make the whole of the area from the Jordan to the sea a Jew free zone, just like other extremist groups of a similar nature did in the rest of North Africa and the Middle East after 1948. Their whole nature and reason for existence is genocidal. A group can have genocidal objectives but not yet be in a position to put these objectives into action.
Yes they are Judaeophobic that is quite plain to see. However, I cannot see what can be gained by being an apologist for Hamas unlike far too many on the British Left.
Part of the reason that Israel has been wary re peace moves is they've been on the recieving end of attacks both from organised Arab armies and terrorism sponsored either by neighbouring states or nutjob states like Iran. The security fence would never have needed to be built if it wasn't for suicide bombs from extremists based in Judea and Samaria.
The average Palestinian has been severely let down by Hamas. The ultimate responsibility for the deaths of civilians in Gaza is down to Hamas.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Yep. The other two variables being the accuracy and the blast radius of the munitions in question. Which I would think also differ by at least an order of magnitude.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Or indeed it can have such objectives and a long history of putting them into action ...
Which is worse?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Well, I take the Grad tales with a pinch of salt myself, but given Hezbollah's success in concealing them, theres a vague possibility that there's a battery or two lurking somewhere in Gaza.
As you rightly say, though, counter-measures would locate and destroy such batteries in short order, given the ability to pinpoint a launch site almost immediately (they're loud, launches are highly visible, and there are few places sparsely-populated enough to launch them from without causing injuries and deaths).
Yep, went through the whole terminology debate with Rachamim a couple of years ago, when he was consistently making it sound like sophisticated guided weapons were being deployed.
Ex.
It is. IIRC Bernie dug up some interesting stuff on them, including a page that showed some of the "rockets".
I don't think that Israel wants anything more than to live in peace with its neighbours. No evidence that it is wantonly expansionist unlike Islamist or European fascist movements.
You gullible twat.
Hey its better than arselicking Hamas though isn't it.
Hamas were given plenty of chances to a) stop the rocket attacks b) negotiate with Israel but they refused both options.
Its even more simplistic to fawn over murderers like Hamas and laud them as liberators and revolutionaries.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Including agents of the state of Israel who acted to "encourage" Jewish communities to leave Arab countries through false-flag operations and other acts of provocation.
So you condemn them on the basis of their intentions, their intent renders them "genocidal" in your eyes?
How very civilised of you, who supports a state that carries out large-scale slaughter against civilian Palestinians. Is that because the state of Israel doesn't declare it's intent to erase even the idea of Arab Palestine from the map? If so, you're wrong. People with far more political power than any of HAMAS' past or present luminaries aspire to have stated their intention to render the entirety of historical Eretz Y'isroel effectively Arabfrei.
You call me an "apologist", I say that far from excusing any actions they take of an offensive nature, I am merely stating plain facts about the state of Israel's mistreatment of civilian Palestinians, the disproportionate nature of their use of collective and indiscriminate punishment fig-leafed with publicity material about "surgical strikes", and their violations of international conventions and laws.
"Apologia" is more your department, I think.
Are you referring to the Arab-Israel wars when you mention the state of Israel being "on the receiving end of attacks"? If so, would you care to cite material from an at least nominally neutral historian that supports your claim.
As for the "security fence", even if I accepted the necessity of it's existence (which I don't. "Suicide bombers" having been, even at their height, a limited and easily-intercepted phenomenon), it was unnecessary, provocative and plain criminal for it's construction to have been used to annexe thousands of hectares of Palestinian-owned land.
No, the ultimate responsibility for the death of any Gazan not connected to HAMAS is the responsibility of the state of Israel, as anyone remotely cognisant of the pertaining laws and conventions will tell you.
You disgust me.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
No evidence?
You're either blind to post-WW2 history, incredibly stupid or disgustingly prejudiced if you actually profess to believe that.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Option a) presupposes that HAMAS are responsible for the attacks. This thread contains ample evidence that other parties were also responsible.
Option b) is disingenuous, as you don't go into why HAMAS "refused both options" (obviously, doing so wouldn't favour your line of argument).
It's more simplistic still to suppose that anyone on this thread besides a couple have cranks have "lauded" HAMAS in any way at all, let alone as "revolutionaries" or "liberators".
Whether they're "murderers" or not, they're the legally-elected government of the Gaza strip, just as the murderers of IRGUN and the Stern gang were part of the legally-elected government of the state of Israel.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Zachor is following the path set by the state of Israel. No middle road.
Spion
I hear ya
Bullshit. You're a serial liar, Zachor. This information has already been presented in this thread and you just put your fingers in your ears and spout the same old party line.
'According to the Israeli press, Yuval Diskin, the current head of the Israeli security service Shin Bet, "told the Israeli cabinet [on 23 December] that Hamas is interested in continuing the truce, but wants to improve its terms." Diskin explained that Hamas was requesting two things: an end to the blockade, and an Israeli ceasefire on the West Bank. The cabinet – high with election fever and eager to appear tough – rejected these terms.'
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...is-not-the-one-israel-is-telling-1214981.html
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
I think there is ample evidence of a neo-fascist strain within Israeli politics, until recently represented on this board by self-described fascist Rachamim.
You can see its roots here: Jabotinksy: The Iron Wall
As described earlier, you can trace this line of thought from Jabotinsky through to his disciple Begin and Begin's ally Shamir, and on to the shameless parade of war crimes right now under the rule of Begin's former aide Olmert.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Zachor's systematic and willful disregard for the truth and empirical facts is reminiscent of the intellectual dishonesty of the holocaust deniers and that's precisely how he should be treated: like a filthy little holocaust denier.
david dissadent
New Member
If the Sudanese government had killed 300 people over the past week would there be this fuss. Would anyone actualy give a shit.
Some lives are worth a great deal more than others too many on this forum.
Some lives are worth a great deal more than others too many on this forum.
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