So why does Israel do what it does?

[durruti02]

Focussing on outbreaks of violence in isolation from the structural violence imposed by the British mandate is a foolish way to look at the history.

Sure, there was Arab violence against Jews, but that occurred in the context of the Mandate making promises of Arab independence and then systematically favouring the Zionists in Palestine's political bodies, despite their forming a tiny minority.

And if you want to start a 'my bodycount is bigger than yours' contest you're on a loser. 5,000 to 10,000 Arabs were killed in the period 1936-39 alone by the British Army and the Haganah (which was trained by the British Army) in a brutal colonial war.

spion and THAT is THE f'ing point .. there are NO winners here in a numbers game .. there is NO solution counterposing one against the other as you inevitably do
..

 

[durruti02]

You're mixing things up a bit there.

The fascism began earlier than the Stern gang. It was Jabotinsky's Betar youth movement who had a training camp in Mussolini's Italy and Jabotinsky who Mussolini referred to as 'your Jewish Fascist'. His followers generally preferred to call him 'our Duce' however.

The Stern Gang emerged later, as the result of a split within Jabotinsky's flavour of zionism. In addition a variety of terrorist atrocities, they were the ones whose offers of allegiance to the Nazis during WW2 were documented by Brenner.

First thing Begin did on being elected after being regarded by most Israelis as a deranged extremist for 30-odd years, was to hang a picture of Jabotinsky on his office wall. Then he invited ex-Stern Gang operations commander Shamir to become Foreign Minister.

Not so long afterwards they invaded Lebanon and in doing so, arguably, did much to set in motion the chain of events which led to Likud's views becoming mainstream within Israel.

apologies you are correct http://www.marxists.de/middleast/ironwall/08-fascter.htm.

 

[durruti02]

All Israel wants to do is to live in peace with its neighbours its just its neighbours have never wanted to let them do that.

but how can not just go to a country, EVEN of it is a homeland of sorts, and expect to take over? what did they think woudl be the reaction?

 

[durruti02]

While it's true that Zionism is ultimately no different to the nationalism of any recently formed state, it hardly excuses the actions of the Israeli state, any more than the genocide of Native Americans excuses the Holocaust, or the Holocaust justifies the Armenian genocide etc.

no but what all of this says is we must finally break that cycle ..

all i see from this dispute is people falling more and more into justifying increasingly rightwing palestinian nationalism

 

[durruti02]

One or two Israel lives vs 200-300 Palistines - definitely sounds fair to me.

It's an easy equation - all you have to do is accept that Israel peoples lives are worth more than those from Palistine.

no it is not 'fair' but none of this is fair .. why does israel then do what it does? or then i ask you what should it do?

 

[Zachor]

but how can not just go to a country, EVEN of it is a homeland of sorts, and expect to take over? what did they think woudl be the reaction?

The land formerly known as Palestine was legally partitioned by the UN prior to 1948. This partition was accepted by the Jewish population but rejected by the Arab nations surrounding it and Arab residents of the land formerly known as Palestine which is why the Arab armies attacked Israel in order to wipe it off of the face of the earth before it had a chance to get going. There were cases where Arabs were forced from their homes but equally there were cases where Arabs left voluntarily intending to return once the Jews had been killed or expelled. Thankfully this genocidal plan of the Arab nations didn't work the Israeli defence forces fought them off. While we are on the subject of explusions those who quite rightly draw attention to the Nakba (and yes I do believe that residents of the land formerly known as Palestine should be financially compensated for property that is now inside Israel) are strangely silent on the many thousands of Jewish people who were expelled from their ancestral homes in North Africa by Muslim Arab governments.

Contrary to popular leftist belief many Jews bought land freely from Arab landowners prior to the re estabilshment of the state of Israel going right back to the time of the First Aliyah. This land wasn't 'stolen' or 'invaded' but freely bought.

It pays to remember that it wasn't Israel that attacked its neighbours first it was the Arab nations that attacked Israel.

The best thing that could happen to the Palestinians in the short term is the complete removal of Hamas. Sometimes when you have a cancer the only thing to do is to remove the cancer surgically and this is what Israeli forces are now having to do.

 

[durruti02]

The land formerly known as Palestine was legally partitioned by the UN prior to 1948. This partition was accepted by the Jewish population but rejected by the Arab nations surrounding it and Arab residents of the land formerly known as Palestine which is why the Arab armies attacked Israel in order to wipe it off of the face of the earth before it had a chance to get going. There were cases where Arabs were forced from their homes but equally there were cases where Arabs left voluntarily intending to return once the Jews had been killed or expelled. Thankfully this genocidal plan of the Arab nations didn't work the Israeli defence forces fought them off. While we are on the subject of explusions those who quite rightly draw attention to the Nakba (and yes I do believe that residents of the land formerly known as Palestine should be financially compensated for property that is now inside Israel) are strangely silent on the many thousands of Jewish people who were expelled from their ancestral homes in North Africa by Muslim Arab governments.

Contrary to popular leftist belief many Jews bought land freely from Arab landowners prior to the re estabilshment of the state of Israel going right back to the time of the First Aliyah. This land wasn't 'stolen' or 'invaded' but freely bought.

It pays to remember that it wasn't Israel that attacked its neighbours first it was the Arab nations that attacked Israel.

The best thing that could happen to the Palestinians in the short term is the complete removal of Hamas. Sometimes when you have a cancer the only thing to do is to remove the cancer surgically and this is what Israeli forces are now having to do.

1) just because this land grab was UN sanctionned does not make it right does it?

2) and just cos property deals are legitimate under law does not make it right that thousends of arabs were thrown off what they regarded as 'their' land

3) what did you expect the arab countries to do? sit back and do nothing while their neighbours had their land declared zionism by deals made in other countries? was there a vote for the arab residents? no there was not ..

4) i have never ignored the vast levels fo attacks on jews in the arabs countries .. but two wrongs do not make a right

and that is the lesson of all of this .. two wrongs do NOT make a right .. Israel is a ultra nationalist quasi fascist country set up as a response to centruries of oppression massacres pogram and genocide .. but it now does, what it had done to it, to another, to the palestinian arabs .. two wrongs do not make a right .. and yes Hamas is a cancer but no more than Betar/Irgun/Stern etc .. they are all deeply cycnical and negative reactions to oppression ..

we need to finally move past this to a new world

 

[Random]

How many non-Israel supporting jews are there in Israel and outside it Spion? Got any numbers? Didn't think so.

There's no surveys of this kind of thing, as you might suspect. But the fact that not all jews have gone to live in Israel, and that large groups such as Peace Now, the Israeli Human Rights project and so forth exist in Israel itself, not to mention jews for Justice outside israel should be enough proof that not all jews support Israeli expansion and occupation.

Plus the large jewish leftist movements that existed in Europe prior to 1942 and acted as an opposite pole to Zionism were destroyed and only survive in remnants in places like the USA.

 

[Spion]

The land formerly known as Palestine was legally partitioned by the UN prior to 1948.

By resolution 181 on Nov 30th 1947. Legally tho? Really? Who asked the people that lived there exactly?

This partition was accepted by the Jewish population but rejected by the Arab nations surrounding it and Arab residents of the land formerly known as Palestine

Of course the Zionists accepted it. They were about 1/3 of the population who only owned about 6% of the land and were given more than half of the land by the UN.

which is why the Arab armies attacked Israel in order to wipe it off of the face of the earth before it had a chance to get going.

The partition was declared on 30 Nov 1947. The Arab armies didn't attack until May 1948, after the British pulled out and Israel declared statehood.

Between the start of 1948 and May 1948 the Zionist militias ethnically cleansed around 200 villages and several towns and cities, including Haifa, where Arabs were literally driven into the sea.

There were cases where Arabs were forced from their homes but equally there were cases where Arabs left voluntarily intending to return once the Jews had been killed or expelled. Thankfully this genocidal plan of the Arab nations didn't work the Israeli defence forces fought them off..

As the actual chronology shows, it was the Zionist militias which had a (documented) plan to expel Arabs from Palestine. The Arab armies responded to a situation of ethnic cleansing going on just the other side of their borders.

And incidentally, of the 5 Arab armies that entered, only 2 went beyond the Arab-allotted zone.

Contrary to popular leftist belief many Jews bought land freely from Arab landowners prior to the re estabilshment of the state of Israel going right back to the time of the First Aliyah. This land wasn't 'stolen' or 'invaded' but freely bought.

Bullshit. Jews owned about 5-6% by early 1948. Following the war they launched they 'owned' - well, stole, really - most of it, including much outside the area allotted to Jews by the UN

It pays to remember that it wasn't Israel that attacked its neighbours first it was the Arab nations that attacked Israel..

More bullshit. You clearly do not understand the course of events

The best thing that could happen to the Palestinians in the short term is the complete removal of Hamas. Sometimes when you have a cancer the only thing to do is to remove the cancer surgically and this is what Israeli forces are now having to do.

It's no surprise you're advocating final solutions now

 

[Grandma Death]

no of course not .. but if we understand that zionism is nationalism and quasi fascism and hamas is nationalism and quasi fascism then we come closer ot a solution or at least an understanding that counterposing israel with hamas is a disaster

I totally agree with this.

Maybe Hamas are playing to their support base but their actions appear politically unsophisticated. The Israelis don't seem to care about Palestinian civilians but neither do Hamas with their siting of rocket launchers in residential areas. Both sides are obsessed with strength and are incapable of a nuanced reading of history. IMO they deserve each other!

 

[tangentlama]

no of course not .. but if we understand that zionism is nationalism and quasi fascism and hamas is nationalism and quasi fascism then we come closer ot a solution or at least an understanding that counterposing israel with hamas is a disasterI totally agree with this.

Maybe Hamas are playing to their support base but their actions appear politically unsophisticated. The Israelis don't seem to care about Palestinian civilians but neither do Hamas with their siting of rocket launchers in residential areas. Both sides are obsessed with strength and are incapable of a nuanced reading of history. IMO they deserve each other!

I totally disagree with the idea of durruti02's that zionism=nationalism+quasifascism and that hamas=nationalism+quasifascism.

This is a complete misunderstanding of zionisms - which can be progressive(liberal, anti-occupation), cultural, religious (this today has a minority where the quasifascistic branch dwells in followers of Rabbi's Kahane and Kook) and nationalist (also some quasi-fascists here too and there is crossover between hardalim (religious ultra-nationalist also mostly if not all against the state).

There is no historical understanding in these pronouncements of durruti02's.

 

[Grandma Death]

Sorry I meant referring to the counterposing of the two sides as opposed to his interpretation of Zionism/nationalism etc.

 

[tangentlama]

It pays to remember that it wasn't Israel that attacked its neighbours first it was the Arab nations that attacked Israel.

The best thing that could happen to the Palestinians in the short term is the complete removal of Hamas. Sometimes when you have a cancer the only thing to do is to remove the cancer surgically and this is what Israeli forces are now having to do.

These are not even your own words, Zachor. This is blatant paraphrase of hate from ex-Chief of Staff, General Moshe Y'alon, who likened Palestinians to cancer and cast his actions as 'applying chemotherapy'.

 

[Spion]

if we understand that zionism is nationalism and quasi fascism

But we don't. It's nationalist alright, but there are fascist zionists and left wing zionists and shades in between.

hamas is nationalism and quasi fascism

It's nationalist alright and Islamic in its idiom, but in its methods it is no different from many nationalist parties in the less-developed world. In the Palestinian scenario, for example, it is in fact indistinguishable from Fatah in its methods, all of which are bound up with the social context of clan and neighbourhood as much as straight politics.

And if it is fascist and has such an iron grip on Gaza it's a pretty poor fascist party seeing as there are numerous other parties and trades unions in existence there.

Too many people misuse the term fascist. It's simply become another way of saying 'not very nice'

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Quite.

There is however a specific historical fascist current within the Israeli right. I think it's entirely reasonable to use the term when speaking of the political legacy running from Jabotinsky via Begin and Shamir through to the present.

 

[Kevicious]

Hypocrite, that is exactly what you are doing. How about the fascist, divisive, homophobic, racist Hamas organization trying the path of peace, giving up their weapons, holding a ceasefire, using their finances to build their communities up rather than continuing an unwinnable fight, which only serves to build support for their morally corrupt organization. The rockets were being used to goad and taunt Israel,it worked, Israel struck back, and now you blame the country under bombardment. Absolutely no nation on earth would sit back and tolerate being fired at, none. Its terrorism, plain and simple.
Only one or two israeli lives were taken, thats one or two too many. 80 rockets in a day is 80 too many, they knew what that behaviour would achieve and they got a response.
Hamas were never going to be a force for peace, and they are not the people to move Palestine forward.

Yes, I agree with you on this statement if you take it in an ahistorical vacuum (does that make me a double hypocrite or does it cancel it out?).

The point I was trying to make is that the ongoing, daily repression of Palestinians (in Gaza and the West Bank) is an issue of huge importance, has been going on for years, and should be an international outrage. Ceasefires, democratic elections and talks have taken place but have not stopped the building of the apartheid wall, the house demolitions, the mass imprisonments, the curfews, the sound bombs, etc. After year upon year of such treatment pretty much ignored in the media, is it a wonder why Hamas can exert such an influence over the Palestinian population?

The whole chicken and egg argument could go on forever and is ultimately futile, although of course the historical context is extremely important. I just feel that Israel's current abuse of power in the region is frightening and inexcusable, and far, far more destructive than what is coming from Gaza. You should not collectively punish Gaza for these rocket attacks, although as yet I do not have an answer to what should be done.

One last thought - if the tables were turned and Palestine was the tooled-up occupier keeping Israelis in a militarised reservation, I would be on these boards denouncing it. As, I imagine, would most of the people here. Military occupation is vile whoever is carrying it out.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

What makes it a concern is that the views associated with this historical fascist current are evidently mainstream in Israel and to some degree among Israel's primarily US fan club.

"Hitler was an unparalleled military genius. Nazism promoted Germany from a low to a fantastic physical and ideological status. The ragged, trashy youth body turned into a neat and orderly part of society and Germany received an exemplary regime, a proper justice system and public order. Hitler savored good music. He would paint. This was no bunch of thugs. They merely used thugs and homosexuals."

"There can be no doubt that Judaism is racist in some sense and when they asserted at the United Nations that Zionism was racist, I did not find much reason to protest. The people who take racism to mean a distinction between races - and this is a very primitive distinction - must argue that Zionism is racist."

"There is no Palestinian nation. There is only an Arab-speaking public which has suddenly identified itself as a people, a negative of the Zionist movement, parasites. The fact that they hadn't done so earlier only serves to prove how inferior they are. The Africans have no nations either. Only Zulus, Tutsis."

All remarks from Likud party candidate Moshe Feiglin.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1045101.html

 

[Random]

Too many people misuse the term fascist. It's simply become another way of saying 'not very nice'

Well said. And this is why I don't like people using the lazy term 'zionazi' for example.

 

[TomPaine]

Interesting discussion. When I worked in Canada I had two team members one was Canadian and originally from Israel and the other was Canadian and was originally from Palestine.

When we went out for beers the conversation would occasional turn to the situation in the middle east, and the impression I got from my two work mates was they where both sick of the situation and the hardliners who continue to provoke tit for tat responses on both sides and divide the communities.

It seems that once people are removed from the environment they are able to take a far more measured view on the situation, rather then being caught up in the atmosphere of the situation.

it may be in the future that the solution for the Israel/Palestine situation will be found outside of the middle east by expat communities working together.

 

[durruti02]

I totally disagree with the idea of durruti02's that zionism=nationalism+quasifascism and that hamas=nationalism+quasifascism.

This is a complete misunderstanding of zionisms - which can be progressive(liberal, anti-occupation), cultural, religious (this today has a minority where the quasifascistic branch dwells in followers of Rabbi's Kahane and Kook) and nationalist (also some quasi-fascists here too and there is crossover between hardalim (religious ultra-nationalist also mostly if not all against the state).

There is no historical understanding in these pronouncements of durruti02's.

tangent and spion .. i was being lazy .. re read what i said in the OP .. i was referring to the israeli state .. i have corrected my reply to joe above .. you are correct to say i was wrong how i referred to zionism so simplistically .. i have added this

"to edit .. i think the above is not accurate enough / too vague .. as people point out below, correctly, it is wrong to say what i have said about zionism above ( check OP for what i really mean) .. zionism encompasses many things but is fundamentally nationalist .. and as such has seeds of fascism within which have been exhibited by the israeli state .. hamas is i believe fascist in a more relegious sense"

however tell me why it is wrong to refer to hamas as fascist?

 

[ViolentPanda]

however tell me why it is wrong to refer to hamas as fascist?

because they have nothing to do with Corporatism, and haven't displayed any desire institute a system based on over-arching state control, perhaps?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Quite.

The reason I think it's reasonable to refer to say Jabotinksy as a fascist is Mussolini's acknowledging him as such and lending him a training facility so his Betar youth movement could goose step around in natty brown uniforms. His followers went on record calling him 'Our Duce'. Similarly I think it's reasonable to call Shamir a fascist because the terrorist movement that he was a part of was an ultra-extremist split from the terrorist part of Jabotinsky's movement, was claimed to be such by several key members and this group were demonstrably political pen-pals with the Nazi Party.

Calling Lidkud a neo-fascist party is also reasonably arguable, in the same way that the BNP traces its roots via Tyndall and the NF to Mosley's Black Shirt movement, you can trace Likud's political roots back through Begin and Shamir to Jabotinsky and Mussolini. They also have several of the key characteristics of fascism, but by themselves they aren't necessarily enough. It's state-worship, glorification of the military, war crimes, victimising those they see as inferior races *and* a direct historical connection to an actual fascist movement that makes the case so solid.

You can't easily make any such comparison with Hamas that I can see.

 

[ska invita]

*Can anyone give me some figures for Hamas inflicted kills/injuries for 2007 and or 2008? THanks..

 

[Spion]

*Can anyone give me some figures for Hamas inflicted kills/injuries for 2007 and or 2008? THanks..

It's difficult to find definitive figures for all recent years, but I got this from a B'tselem report:

"In the past two years* 668 Palestinians were killed in the Gaza Strip by the Israeli security forces. Over half – 359 people – were not involved in any hostilities at the time they were killed. 126 of those killed were minors. 361 were killed by missiles fired from helicopters. 39 of those killed were targeted for assassination. 99 were killed by tank fire. 18 members of one family were killed by shells that hit their home. Another 357 people have been killed in fighting between armed Palestinian groups – over 150 were killed in the Fatah-Hamas clashes in June alone. Of those killed, 90 did not take part in the fighting. During the same period, Palestinians fired some 2800 Qassam rockets and mortar shells into Israel from the Gaza Strip. Four Israeli civilians were killed by Qassam rockets and hundreds were injured. Four members of the Israeli security forces were killed in attacks originating in the Gaza Strip.
* the statistics are accurate for the period 1 September 2005-25 July 2007"

from The Gaza Strip – One big prison. B’Tselem, 2007

 

[ska invita]

It's difficult to find definitive figures for all recent years, but I got this from a B'tselem report:

"In the past two years* 668 Palestinians were killed in the Gaza Strip by the Israeli security forces. Over half – 359 people – were not involved in any hostilities at the time they were killed. 126 of those killed were minors. 361 were killed by missiles fired from helicopters. 39 of those killed were targeted for assassination. 99 were killed by tank fire. 18 members of one family were killed by shells that hit their home. Another 357 people have been killed in fighting between armed Palestinian groups – over 150 were killed in the Fatah-Hamas clashes in June alone. Of those killed, 90 did not take part in the fighting. During the same period, Palestinians fired some 2800 Qassam rockets and mortar shells into Israel from the Gaza Strip. Four Israeli civilians were killed by Qassam rockets and hundreds were injured. Four members of the Israeli security forces were killed in attacks originating in the Gaza Strip.
* the statistics are accurate for the period 1 September 2005-25 July 2007"

from The Gaza Strip – One big prison. B’Tselem, 2007

Thanks. I couldnt find anything more up to date than this- but it does give a feel of 2007 and 2008 - seems to add up to around the 2800 rockets your source mentions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Qassam_rocket_attacks
wikipidea is not the best source, but those listed are sourced.

Four deaths from 2800 rockets cant be right though can it? <<<Not to dminish the seriousness of the impact of 'injuries' (which can be extremely severe) as well as PTSD that is inevitable with being under constant attack.

Graphic showing the number of Qassam rockets fired from Gaza Strip by month, from 2002 to 2007.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Four deaths from 2800 rockets cant be right though can it? <<<Not to dminish the seriousness of the impact of 'injuries' (which can be extremely severe) as well as PTSD that is inevitable with being under constant attack.

Robert Fisk quoted 8 in an article a day or 2 ago. It is suprisingly small. Not remotely an excuse but it does display how disproportionate the response is.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

People quite rightly are quick to attack israel for its attacks on gaza or hamas .. but while we mostly agree that the israeli state is extreme nationalist quasi fascist i do not think many really wish to understand why this has arisen ..

There's this long history, no doubt, but I think of it this way. Imagine the Thames was a border, and those on the south didn't get along with those in the north. There is an uneasy truce, but the ones in the north are lobbing rockets across the river on a constant basis.

So there you are in the south. You have a kickass army etc, and the people you supposedly have a truce with, are firing explosives into your territory daily or almost daily.

You want lasting peace etc, but what do you do about those daily rockets?

 

[Spion]

There's this long history, no doubt, but I think of it this way. Imagine the Thames was a border, and those on the south didn't get along with those in the north. There is an uneasy truce, but the ones in the north are lobbing rockets across the river on a constant basis.

So there you are in the south. You have a kickass army etc, and the people you supposedly have a truce with, are firing explosives into your territory daily or almost daily.

You want lasting peace etc, but what do you do about those daily rockets?

I'd lift the siege I'd placed around the north, I'd allow their ports to operate so they could fish and trade, I'd send in food and supplies to help alleviate the suffering the siege had caused. I'd initiate talks to get everyone talking about how we could solve the issues caused when my people kicked their people out of their homes and moved 'my' ethnic group in in their place. I'd direct all the energy spent making war on these poor people towards creating jobs and housing for us all. I'd be demanding the rich of my country paid for it all - as well as the US and UK - because they're the only ones who've benefitted from decades of war while its the ordinary northers and southers suffered death and destruction.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Four deaths from 2800 rockets cant be right though can it?

21 deaths in 8 years as of yesterday, and it's perfectly accurate.

You're probably reading the word "rocket" and thinking of something like a Rapier or Tapeworm, when a better comparison would be with the impromptu "rockets" the IRA attacked Downing Street with; redundant pressurised gas containers with a small payload, and with absolutely no guidance system except triangulation. basically glorified mortars with a short-burst propulsion system to give them range.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Also, I guess due to the nature of the devices and the targets being relatively small, often agricultural communities, the probability of them actually hitting anything is very low.

Wheras the Israelis are slamming much more powerful missiles directly into densely packed urban communities, such that the probability of killing people is considerably higher.

Edited to add: judging by the casualty figures, roughly 100 times higher and with no way to separate civilians from 'legitimate targets' given the very high population density.