So why does Israel do what it does?

[Bernie Gunther]

While accepting that things can have more than one cause, an aspect of Israeli politics that I've found deeply worrying for some time is the evident influence of a political current descended from a specific form of historical fascism.

What makes it a concern is that the views associated with this historical fascist current are evidently mainstream in Israel and to some degree among Israel's primarily US fan club.

I can't help but think this has some bearing on the question posed by the OP.

 

[Kevicious]

What a load of horseshit, nothing i do will prevent palestinians from attacking israel and israel responding, which is what happened - israel didnt act without reason, there is no issue over there that cant be resolved by sitting around a table so why the constant attacks on israel, why invite israel to attack, we all know what the outcome of that is.

You seem to accept rather easily the mainstream line that these rocket attacks were the starting point for the latest Israeli military strikes. Even if we accept that the level and seriousness of the rocket attacks justify the Israeli response (and I don't think many people here would), surely you cannot suggest that the rocket attacks are the very start, not a result, of the conflict. I am not defending any such rocket attacks into civilain areas, but the ongoing, brutal, dehumanising, cynical military occupation of Palestine tends to lead some people to behave in a certain way.

Every single day, Palestinians are killed, imprisoned, beaten, made homeless, denied basic human rights, and there is no mainstream press coverage at all.

Some homemade rockets are chucked over the wall, killing one? two? people, the press and politicians tell the Palestinians they are bringing it on themselves.

One of the greatest deceits of the politicians and mainstream media is to report the Israel / Palestine issue in terms of a military / terrorist struggle, and utterly ignore the building of settlements, the apartheid wall, the human rights abuses, etc. If the focus was turned onto this, as it was in South Africa, I think that public opinion would shift dramatically.

 

[frogwoman]

While accepting that things can have more than one cause, an aspect of Israeli politics that I've found deeply worrying for some time is the evident influence of a political current descended from a specific form of historical fascism.

What makes it a concern is that the views associated with this historical fascist current are evidently mainstream in Israel and to some degree among Israel's primarily US fan club.

I can't help but think this has some bearing on the question posed by the OP.

This.

 

[Spion]

You seem to accept rather easily the mainstream line that these rocket attacks were the starting point for the latest Israeli military strikes. Even if we accept that the level and seriousness of the rocket attacks justify the Israeli response (and I don't think many people here would), surely you cannot suggest that the rocket attacks are the very start, not a result, of the conflict. I am not defending any such rocket attacks into civilain areas, but the ongoing, brutal, dehumanising, cynical military occupation of Palestine tends to lead some people to behave in a certain way.

Every single day, Palestinians are killed, imprisoned, beaten, made homeless, denied basic human rights, and there is no mainstream press coverage at all.

Some homemade rockets are chucked over the wall, killing one? two? people, the press and politicians tell the Palestinians they are bringing it on themselves.

One of the greatest deceits of the politicians and mainstream media is to report the Israel / Palestine issue in terms of a military / terrorist struggle, and utterly ignore the building of settlements, the apartheid wall, the human rights abuses, etc. If the focus was turned onto this, as it was in South Africa, I think that public opinion would shift dramatically.

Good post

 

[frogwoman]

You seem to accept rather easily the mainstream line that these rocket attacks were the starting point for the latest Israeli military strikes. Even if we accept that the level and seriousness of the rocket attacks justify the Israeli response (and I don't think many people here would), surely you cannot suggest that the rocket attacks are the very start, not a result, of the conflict. I am not defending any such rocket attacks into civilain areas, but the ongoing, brutal, dehumanising, cynical military occupation of Palestine tends to lead some people to behave in a certain way.

Every single day, Palestinians are killed, imprisoned, beaten, made homeless, denied basic human rights, and there is no mainstream press coverage at all.

Some homemade rockets are chucked over the wall, killing one? two? people, the press and politicians tell the Palestinians they are bringing it on themselves.

One of the greatest deceits of the politicians and mainstream media is to report the Israel / Palestine issue in terms of a military / terrorist struggle, and utterly ignore the building of settlements, the apartheid wall, the human rights abuses, etc. If the focus was turned onto this, as it was in South Africa, I think that public opinion would shift dramatically.

agreed 100%.

 

[barney_pig]

"Every single day, Palestinians are killed, imprisoned, beaten, made homeless, denied basic human rights, and there is no mainstream press coverage at all."
quite right, every day palestinians are being killed , imprisoned , beaten , made homeless and denied basic human rights- these are the palestinians who have the misfortune to be in the Gaza, under the control of the fascist Hamas organisation, who refuse to allow or tolerate any opposition to their "god" given mission to sacrifice every last palestinian in their war against the Jews

 

[joevsimp]

but they have lost a 'war' ... since the maccabi's the jews have lost about every 'fight' they were involved with .. they have been massacred over and over and over again culminating in the holocaust when c6 million were massacred in an attempted genocide in europe

so yes israel has said they will never lose again ..

i think their tactic is wrong but that is the psychological reason

thats not what I said, the op is "why does Israel do what it does?" which I answered, you seem to think the question I answered was "Why are the Jews such utter bastards towards the Palestinians?" Since it's formation in 1948, the State of Israel has not fought a war that it has lost, they even managed to get out of the suez crisis relatively scott free

 

[diego]

You seem to accept rather easily the mainstream line that these rocket attacks were the starting point for the latest Israeli military strikes. Even if we accept that the level and seriousness of the rocket attacks justify the Israeli response (and I don't think many people here would), surely you cannot suggest that the rocket attacks are the very start, not a result, of the conflict. I am not defending any such rocket attacks into civilain areas, but the ongoing, brutal, dehumanising, cynical military occupation of Palestine tends to lead some people to behave in a certain way.

Every single day, Palestinians are killed, imprisoned, beaten, made homeless, denied basic human rights, and there is no mainstream press coverage at all.

Some homemade rockets are chucked over the wall, killing one? two? people, the press and politicians tell the Palestinians they are bringing it on themselves.

One of the greatest deceits of the politicians and mainstream media is to report the Israel / Palestine issue in terms of a military / terrorist struggle, and utterly ignore the building of settlements, the apartheid wall, the human rights abuses, etc. If the focus was turned onto this, as it was in South Africa, I think that public opinion would shift dramatically.

Spot on!

 

[weltweit]

Israel does what it does because : It can.

It is the regional superpower.

And it has the backing of the global superpower.

Therefore it can pretty much do as it pleases, and so, it does.

 

[durruti02]

While accepting that things can have more than one cause, an aspect of Israeli politics that I've found deeply worrying for some time is the evident influence of a political current descended from a specific form of historical fascism.

What makes it a concern is that the views associated with this historical fascist current are evidently mainstream in Israel and to some degree among Israel's primarily US fan club.

I can't help but think this has some bearing on the question posed by the OP.

yes there was always fascism within zionism particulalry from the 3ts onwards .. The Stern Gang were happy to call themselves fascists and according to Lenni Brenner were based in Italy during the war and Mussolini visited their camps ..

but again HOW did this happen?? at a time when german fascism was massacrering jews how do jews in palestine become fascists???? partly i would suggest as they were being massacred by the arabs in palestine and extremes beget extremes

.. and of course now this has itself created a fascist muslim botherhood/ hamas

 

[durruti02]

You seem to accept rather easily the mainstream line that these rocket attacks were the starting point for the latest Israeli military strikes. Even if we accept that the level and seriousness of the rocket attacks justify the Israeli response (and I don't think many people here would), surely you cannot suggest that the rocket attacks are the very start, not a result, of the conflict. I am not defending any such rocket attacks into civilain areas, but the ongoing, brutal, dehumanising, cynical military occupation of Palestine tends to lead some people to behave in a certain way.

Every single day, Palestinians are killed, imprisoned, beaten, made homeless, denied basic human rights, and there is no mainstream press coverage at all.

Some homemade rockets are chucked over the wall, killing one? two? people, the press and politicians tell the Palestinians they are bringing it on themselves.

One of the greatest deceits of the politicians and mainstream media is to report the Israel / Palestine issue in terms of a military / terrorist struggle, and utterly ignore the building of settlements, the apartheid wall, the human rights abuses, etc. If the focus was turned onto this, as it was in South Africa, I think that public opinion would shift dramatically.

you see you seem to me typical of someone whose knowledge stops back at 1948 .. in what you say there appears no knowledge of the massacres of jews by arabs throughout the 20ts and 30ts NOR an awareness of what israel is meant to be for the jews .. a place where they can forever live without being massacred ..

yes they got it badly wrong BUT until you and others understand that you will not change them

 

[joevsimp]

but that does not give Israel the right to perpetrate massacres of their own, Gaza is no different to a Ghetto, except being bigger.

 

[Spion]

in what you say there appears no knowledge of the massacres of jews by arabs throughout the 20ts and 30ts

Focussing on outbreaks of violence in isolation from the structural violence imposed by the British mandate is a foolish way to look at the history.

Sure, there was Arab violence against Jews, but that occurred in the context of the Mandate making promises of Arab independence and then systematically favouring the Zionists in Palestine's political bodies, despite their forming a tiny minority.

And if you want to start a 'my bodycount is bigger than yours' contest you're on a loser. 5,000 to 10,000 Arabs were killed in the period 1936-39 alone by the British Army and the Haganah (which was trained by the British Army) in a brutal colonial war.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

yes there was always fascism within zionism particulalry from the 3ts onwards .. The Stern Gang were happy to call themselves fascists and according to Lenni Brenner were based in Italy during the war and Mussolini visited their camps ..

but again HOW did this happen?? at a time when german fascism was massacrering jews how do jews in palestine become fascists???? partly i would suggest as they were being massacred by the arabs in palestine and extremes beget extremes

.. and of course now this has itself created a fascist muslim botherhood/ hamas

You're mixing things up a bit there.

The fascism began earlier than the Stern gang. It was Jabotinsky's Betar youth movement who had a training camp in Mussolini's Italy and Jabotinsky who Mussolini referred to as 'your Jewish Fascist'. His followers generally preferred to call him 'our Duce' however.

The Stern Gang emerged later, as the result of a split within Jabotinsky's flavour of zionism. In addition a variety of terrorist atrocities, they were the ones whose offers of allegiance to the Nazis during WW2 were documented by Brenner.

First thing Begin did on being elected after being regarded by most Israelis as a deranged extremist for 30-odd years, was to hang a picture of Jabotinsky on his office wall. Then he invited ex-Stern Gang operations commander Shamir to become Foreign Minister.

Not so long afterwards they invaded Lebanon and in doing so, arguably, did much to set in motion the chain of events which led to Likud's views becoming mainstream within Israel.

 

[Zachor]

All Israel wants to do is to live in peace with its neighbours its just its neighbours have never wanted to let them do that.

 

[Spion]

First thing Begin did on being elected after being regarded by most Israelis as a deranged extremist for 30-odd years, was to hang a picture of Jabotinsky on his office wall. Then he invited ex-Stern Gang operations commander Shamir to become Foreign Minister.

It's also worth pointing out that Israel officially recognises the contributiuon of the fascist militias in its formation. In the 70s it instituted the IZL and Lehi ribbons as decorations for the brave men who tossed grenades into Arab marketplaces and massacred women and children

 

[Spion]

All Israel wants to do is to live in peace with its neighbours its just its neighbours have never wanted to let them do that.

Oh, sure. I'd want to live in peace after I'd kicked out 750,000 people and stolen 10s of 1,000s of sq km in wars I'd started.

 

[In Bloom]

yes we can agree here .. but what people have not done this? america did it to the native amercians, the brits wiped out the tasmanians, the sunni want shia land the chinese wnat tibet, the turks wiped out the armenians, the spanish rule the basques the catalans etc, when italy was founded most dod not speak italian, my fathers tongue and culture was nearly destroyed etc etc etc .. ( i could write pages on the wrongs of nationalism )

SO WHY can the jews in Israel not have their own nationalism? why can they not behave as everyone else does?

While it's true that Zionism is ultimately no different to the nationalism of any recently formed state, it hardly excuses the actions of the Israeli state, any more than the genocide of Native Americans excuses the Holocaust, or the Holocaust justifies the Armenian genocide etc.

 

[tangentlama]

you see you seem to me typical of someone whose knowledge stops back at 1948 .. in what you say there appears no knowledge of the massacres of jews by arabs throughout the 20ts and 30ts NOR an awareness of what israel is meant to be for the jews .. a place where they can forever live without being massacred ..

yes they got it badly wrong BUT until you and others understand that you will not change them

In what you say, there appears no knowledge of the various uprisings and massacres throughout the 1920s and 1930s. You should go back further, into early 19th century Ottoman rule, and see the uprisings in Hebron.

You have not mentioned the whole of the knowledge of these riots and stress the number murdered, and not the number saved

In the 1929 Hebron massacre, Arab rioters killed 67 Jews and wounded 60, and Jewish homes and synagogues were ransacked; 435 Jews survived by virtue of the shelter and assistance offered them by their Arab neighbours, who hid them

.

What type of rioters were these 'Arab rioters'? Why were they rioting? What part did the British play? Why did 'Arab' neighbours (meaning Hebron residents) save 435 Jews from these rioters? A more nuanced and sophisticated discussion from you, durrutti02, would be welcome, rather than to see you imply that others in this discussion know less than you.

 

[kyser_soze]

Because after 4000 years of being bullied the Jews finally found someone who they could kick around; ironically it was a people who'd also been kicked around by their notional 'brothers' for a long, long time as well.

Spion talks about Zionism being a colonialist mentality, well what would anyone expect after 4000 years of pogroms, cleansings, inquisitions and the rest of it?

 

[tangentlama]

Because after 4000 years of being bullied the Jews finally found someone who they could kick around; ironically it was a people who'd also been kicked around by their notional 'brothers' for a long, long time as well.

Spion talks about Zionism being a colonialist mentality, well what would anyone expect after 4000 years of pogroms, cleansings, inquisitions and the rest of it?

You exaggerate by nearly 2000 years, the length of 'pogroms, cleansings, inquisitions and the rest of it' and this I find sloppy-thinking, although I am certain you did not intend to come across this way!

4,000 years ago was the time of Abram/Abraham the pastoralist patriarch, as he moved from Haran through K'naan into Egypt. On his return from Eqypt, Abraham bought some land at Hebron from a Hittite and this was where Sarah was buried and later Abraham himself.

It is not good enough to gloss over first the Roman, then later the Christian-backed persecution of Jews from the beginning of the first millenium It's not good enough to gloss over 1,000 years of violent and persistent persecution against Jews across Europe which began as the first crusades swept through Europe on their way to 'liberate' Jerusalem in the latter part of the first millenium. The end of the crusades in Middle East did not end persecution of Jews in Europe, which continued and worsened throughout the second millenium across Europe (and Russia). It's not good enough to gloss over European/Russian/USA involvement in the Middle East over the last 200 years and the effect that various European regimes support for various emergent nationalist groups. It's not enough to leave out the US/Russian spread antisemitic propagandas of Henry Ford's beloved Protocols into Middle East. I am certain you meant just to make a quick post, but I believe it the situation is not simple and does not warrant a simple response.

One evidence of colonial attitudes can be seen in the use of the colonial's favoured 'legal' weapon of Terra Nullius. Terra Nullius has been used by Zionists to gain land and justify their acquisition of land by force and by force of law throughout Israel-Palestine.

Terra Nullius (land belonging to no-one) was used by many colonial regimes, including Britain during their colonisation of Australia. A good example from Britain's colonisation of Australia would be

"In 1835 Governor Bourke implemented the doctrine of terra nullius by proclaiming that Indigenous Australians could not sell or assign land, nor could an individual person acquire it, other than through distribution by the Crown."
http://www.arts.usyd.edu.au/departs/history/research/projects/fitzmaurice_terra.shtml

 

[kyser_soze]

Hmm, OK, 3000 years since the Egytptians first turned them into slaves...my point is that anyone who has even a vague concept of the history of judaism will find the question in the thread title idiotic. I mean fucks sake - the UK has only been occupied a few times in it's history and that was enough to turn us into a culture based around the Roman ideal of territorial expansion and mission to 'civilise' the rest of the world, so does anyone NOT understand how millenia of being harrassed, harangued, hated and ultimately murdered by your immediate neighbours wouldn't turn at least certain members of a society into colonialist bullies themselves?

 

[Rikbikboo]

People quite rightly are quick to attack israel for its attacks on gaza or hamas .. but while we mostly agree that the israeli state is extreme nationalist quasi fascist i do not think many really wish to understand why this has arisen ..

why did the community minded land loving groups of zionists fleeing from anti semitism and later the holocaust ended up like this?

this understanding IS crucial as until you understand WHY Israel acts like this, they will not stop ..

what do i think? that anti semitism continues throughout the world, individually ( and we even see it on here ) and in govts, e.g. Iran and that until jewish people wherever they live feel they are secure wherever they live they will support and bankroll israel

zionism and and hamas are the same thing .. ultra nationalist reactions to racism and fascism .. they will only go away IF there is an alternative .. Israel thinks they can defeat hamas .. they can not .. and hamas thinks they can defeat israel .. they can not

but also fundamentally though while america thinks it can rule the world they will use israel to encourage nationalism and racism rather than unity

to stop this sad cycle we must do what we can to change society where we live in the hope that one day that will change the forces that currently drive these two peoples at each other

I was given a history lesson on this going back to 2200bc from a guy in work who has a degree in history. if what he told me was true then its all pretty complicated and Arafat should have took the deal he was offered a couple of years ago. it might not have suited all but the palistinians will never have another chance like that again.

its all a shame

 

[Stanley Edwards]

I'm not so sure the media is anywhere near as biased on this war as it is with Iraq (and other US led invasions).

Walking towards the cathedral today I passed a graffiti cleaning van. The 'Star of David' = 'Nazi Cross' springing up everywhere. The front page of yesterdays El Mundo featured a Palestine guy holding a young boy with his skull quite literally blown apart. I'm pretty sure equally horrific and unjustified raids were carried out by US and UK military on civilians in Iraq, but they don't seem to arouse the same feelings of hatred for One single group of people in the same way as the hate of all Jews is happening now.

Perhaps it's not the same in the UK. I was watching TV in a bar the other day. Some spokeswoman from the Israeli government was pretty much telling people who to vote for and who not to vote for. Her bottom line was that there was only one option for piece and that was to wipe out Hamas. There are no other alternatives.

Americans and Brits get a hard time in many places for the wars we're involved in even if we don't support the actions of our governments, but it's far from the same thing.

Possibly posting on the wrong thread. If the OP? is looking for a justifiable answer, there never is one.

Pretty ugly end to the year that doesn't bode well for next year. I quick glance through the media of the past week makes the Western World look like a very backward place. Sinking back towards medevil beliefs and values with far more destructive weapons.

Oh well. Happy New Year. Think I'm going to switch off from all media for the whole of next year and continue living in my own little itinerant state where everybody smiles at me. Apart from the cunts. I'll just spit back at them

 

[Spion]

Spion talks about Zionism being a colonialist mentality, well what would anyone expect after 4000 years of pogroms, cleansings, inquisitions and the rest of it?

Yes, slaves tend to become like their masters, metaphorically-speaking, but it should be noted that plenty of jews do not feel the need to terrorise other ethnic groups and build houses on their land. It's historically ignorant to suggest that the only response by jews to their history has been to oppress others. It has only ever been a tiny minority engaged in the colonial project and many jews have an outstanding record for being against racism and zionist colonialism.

 

[Spion]

I mean fucks sake - the UK has only been occupied a few times in it's history and that was enough to turn us into a culture based around the Roman ideal of territorial expansion and mission to 'civilise' the rest of the world

That is the biggest load of guff I've ever seen you come out with. To reduce the rise of the British empire to 'us being occupied a few times' is unadulterated garbage for which you'll find no historical evidence.

To suggest that nations develop some kind of uniform memory is bordering on very dodgy territory

 

[kyser_soze]

Yes, slaves tend to become like their masters, metaphorically-speaking, but it should be noted that plenty of jews do not feel the need to terrorise other ethnic groups and build houses on their land. It's historically ignorant to suggest that the only response by jews to their history has been to oppress others. It has only ever been a tiny minority engaged in the colonial project and many jews have an outstanding record for being against racism and zionist colonialism.

That is the biggest load of guff I've ever seen you come out with. To reduce the rise of the British empire to 'us being occupied a few times' is unadulterated garbage for which you'll find no historical evidence.

To suggest that nations develop some kind of uniform memory is bordering on very dodgy territory

Well it's a good thing I'm not saying either of those things then, isn't it?

How many non-Israel supporting jews are there in Israel and outside it Spion? Got any numbers? Didn't think so.

As for the 2nd comment, I'm not making any mention about uniform memory - indeed, if anything it's the opposite and was come about via a Marxian reading of history, so lets see if you can work out how I got there.

 

[purplex]

I am not defending any such rocket attacks into civilain areas, but the ongoing, brutal, dehumanising, cynical military occupation of Palestine tends to lead some people to behave in a certain way.

Every single day, Palestinians are killed, imprisoned, beaten, made homeless, denied basic human rights, and there is no mainstream press coverage at all.

Some homemade rockets are chucked over the wall, killing one? two? people, the press and politicians tell the Palestinians they are bringing it on themselves.

One of the greatest deceits of the politicians and mainstream media is to report the Israel / Palestine issue in terms of a military / terrorist struggle, and utterly ignore the building of settlements, the apartheid wall, the human rights abuses, etc. If the focus was turned onto this, as it was in South Africa, I think that public opinion would shift dramatically.

Hypocrite, that is exactly what you are doing. How about the fascist, divisive, homophobic, racist Hamas organization trying the path of peace, giving up their weapons, holding a ceasefire, using their finances to build their communities up rather than continuing an unwinnable fight, which only serves to build support for their morally corrupt organization. The rockets were being used to goad and taunt Israel,it worked, Israel struck back, and now you blame the country under bombardment. Absolutely no nation on earth would sit back and tolerate being fired at, none. Its terrorism, plain and simple.
Only one or two israeli lives were taken, thats one or two too many. 80 rockets in a day is 80 too many, they knew what that behaviour would achieve and they got a response.
Hamas were never going to be a force for peace, and they are not the people to move Palestine forward.

 

[spring-peeper]

One or two Israel lives vs 200-300 Palistines - definitely sounds fair to me.

It's an easy equation - all you have to do is accept that Israel peoples lives are worth more than those from Palistine.

 

[durruti02]

but that does not give Israel the right to perpetrate massacres of their own, Gaza is no different to a Ghetto, except being bigger.

no of course not .. but if we understand that zionism is nationalism and quasi fascism and hamas is nationalism and quasi fascism then we come closer ot a solution or at least an understanding that counterposing israel with hamas is a disaster

to edit .. i think the above is not accurate enough / too vague .. as people point out below, correctly, it is wrong to say what i have said about zionism above ( check OP for what i really mean) .. zionism encompasses many things but is fundamentally nationalist .. and as such has seeds of fascism within which have been exhibited by the israeli state .. hamas is i believe fascist in a more relegious sense