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Operation pillar of cloud. Israeli assault on Gaza

frogwoman said:
I have my doubt that the "demographic threat" of the Haredi is as serious as is portrayed by secular Israelis tbh. It reminds me of "the UK will be muslim in 50 years" bullshit. There's a couple of interesting articles by israeli marxists about this that I'll try and dig out later
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I don't think we need to accept the nightmare scenerio in order to see that there is a demographic pattern which is contributing to the general trend driving Israel to the right.

What is also interesting about these stats (if true) is that they also pose another possibility,if the secular Jewish population declines to 25% and the non Jewish population remains at the same then the option of secular jews allying with non jews to defend secular and democratic values against the religious right arises. That would be ironic.
 
An example of a telling comparison is the status of Israeli Arabs. On the face of it, being exempt from conscription sounds like a good thing, but in reality, just as in racist SA where only white people were conscripted, it is an indication of your second-class status in your own country. Add to that the 'bantustan' status of the West Bank - an allegedly autonomous 'authority' which is nothing of the kind, best land taken by Israelis, etc, and you have a comparison worth making, imo. Israel claims to be a democracy, but where is the vote for people living in Gaza or the West Bank? Why are even people within Israel classified officially according to racial/ethnic characteristics?
 
audiotech said:
Is it likely that In Gaza Hamas were to form an independent, Islamic state? Appears that this is what they are implementing presently and from what I can see it's damn brutal too. If this was to come about then it would take the population out of Gaza out of any equation with regards to Israel.
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I dont think that would serve their aims very well, they need the concept of one Palestine in order to keep the struggle against Israel alive in its fullest form, and a Palestinian identity is not going to be thrown away. A fully separated Gaza would also be open to accusations that it was really under the control of Egypt, as it once was decades ago.

Rather, reconcilliation with Fatah seems to be on the agenda,though its a mixed bag so far:

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=294502

Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar on Monday called on Fatah to join his movement in the fight against Israel and to stop wasting time and effort with the peace process.​
Zahar’s call came as Hamas and Fatah representatives stepped up their efforts to end their differences and achieve “national reconciliation.”​
Meanwhile, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas told reporters in Ramallah that his top priority now was to end the rivalry with Hamas, and said he saw no reason why the two sides could not reach an agreement on holding presidential and parliamentary elections.​
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​
Sha’ath said that Fatah and Hamas leaders have voiced satisfaction over the participation of their followers in joint celebrations and rallies in the West Bank and Gaza Strip over the past two weeks.
PLO Executive Committee member Wasel Abu Yusef said that Fatah and Hamas were now waiting for an invitation from Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi to hold reconciliation talks in Cairo.
The Egyptians, he noted, have been exerting heavy pressure on the two parties to end their differences and form a Palestinian unity government.
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As for the brutality of Islamist regimes, have to be careful to study brutality in all its forms to get a proper picture. For example I believe it is important not to look at the loss of certain freedoms and the way that certain laws are policed and punishments delivered in isolation, must also consider the various forms of social welfare net that some islamist entities are adept at providing. I much prefer secular stuff, but the problem is that decades of selling-out, dictatorship, corruption and other forms of brutality have undermined many secular entities in the region. Beneath the rhetoric islamist groups may be just as capable of economic injustice and cutting deals with superpowers, but they have still found some moral high ground, even if its an illusion.
 
dylans said:
I don't think we need to accept the nightmare scenerio in order to see that there is a demographic pattern which is contributing to the general trend driving Israel to the right.

What is also interesting about these stats (if true) is that they also pose another possibility,if the secular Jewish population declines to 25% and the non Jewish population remains at the same then the option of secular jews allying with non jews to defend secular and democratic values against the religious right arises. That would be ironic.
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I don't think secular Israeli politics needs any help from Haredim in being driven to the right.
 
frogwoman said:
I have my doubt that the "demographic threat" of the Haredi is as serious as is portrayed by many secular Israelis tbh. It reminds me of "the UK will be muslim in 50 years" bullshit. There's a couple of interesting articles by israeli marxists about this that I'll try and dig out later
Click to expand...

Due to the amazing youth demographics of the wider region I had rather bought into the 'demographic timebomb' as part of the explanation for dramatic changes in the region, but lately I have realised that this story has been shouted about in Israel for a very long time and at the very least the most dramatic of projections being bandied around decades ago have not come to frution at the pace envisaged at the time. So yeah, I'd tread carefully on that one.

We also have to be careful when presuming what the likes of Likuds true stance really is. Coalitions and factions are a big factor in Israeli politics, and the likes of Netanyahu walk a tightrope when stating their position. From some of what is said it seems that actually his fudge does involve a two state solution, but one where the Palestinian state is only a sub-state, demilitarised and subsurvient to Israeli interests. Thats not so very different to what already exists, so we shouldnt be surprised if many of their actions are geared towards maintaining the status quo for as long as possible.

On a related note, there are still big questions as to whether they really intend to build in E1 at all, or whether its just words designed to look tough, avoid the impression of impotence, keep their political partners happy, indulge in electioneering and keep various processes in stalemate.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
An example of a telling comparison is the status of Israeli Arabs. On the face of it, being exempt from conscription sounds like a good thing, but in reality, just as in racist SA where only white people were conscripted, it is an indication of your second-class status in your own country. Add to that the 'bantustan' status of the West Bank - an allegedly autonomous 'authority' which is nothing of the kind, best land taken by Israelis, etc, and you have a comparison worth making, imo. Israel claims to be a democracy, but where is the vote for people living in Gaza or the West Bank? Why are even people within Israel classified officially according to racial/ethnic characteristics?
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But Arab Israelis' situation isn't like the situation of black people under apartheid. it fucking sucks for sure, but it's not the same thing. I think Serbia and Kosovo is a better comparison. Albanians in Serbia proper had (in theory) equal rights, their own political representation, etc. In practice they were usually refused permission for things, treated like scum, beaten up, etc. Of course most of this sounded a lot better than it actually was, especially in the context of a state that was attempting to ethnically cleanse what was in theory its citizens in Kosovo.

I don't think that Israel could get away with taking away the vote from its Arab citizens; I think this is pretty unlikely tbh.

I'd say that the treatment of Palestinians, especially in Gaza, is a lot worse than any of the atrocities that happened under apartheid as well.
 
ok. Not sure we're disagreeing about anything important. In some important ways, apartheid SA was worse because it was necessarily based on a hateful ideology. I outlined the extent to which I think the comparison is valid above, and I do think the parallel can be a useful one. But there are of course also important differences.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
ok. Not sure we're disagreeing about anything important. In some important ways, apartheid SA was worse because it was necessarily based on a hateful ideology. I outlined the extent to which I think the comparison is valid above, and I do think the parallel can be a useful one. But there are of course also important differences.
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It is important though because the more obvious comparisons that are made (south africa, nazi germany etc) are so easy for zionists etc to disprove. And demographically the white population of South africa was and is nothing like the Israeli population, in terms of class background, education, income etc.
 
frogwoman said:
It is important though because the more obvious comparisons that are made (south africa, nazi germany etc) are so easy for zionists etc to disprove. And demographically the white population of South africa was and is nothing like the Israeli population, in terms of class background, education, income etc.
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They cannot disprove the fact that they apportion civil rights at least in part according to an officially designated ethnicity.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
They cannot disprove the fact that they apportion civil rights at least in part according to an officially designated ethnicity.
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So do lots of places, but not on such an extreme scale as South Africa.

And as I have pointed out Israel are very adept at phrasing laws etc in such a way that the effect will be discriminatory but the actual law is not. So for example saying that people who haven't served in the military can't do xyz. It can and is pointed out, that Bedouin, Druze etc serve in the Israeli military (and they do). Also in Israel proper (ie not in the occupied territories) you don't get the crude "blacks in this entrance, whites in this entrance" sort of quite openly racist shit that you got in apartheid south africa.

That doesn't make it right. I agree that there are parallels. But that doesn't mean that they are the same thing.
 
Maybe we do disagree then. I do think the comparison is warranted. And I object very strongly to the very strong objections Israel makes about the comparison whenever it is made.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Maybe we do disagree then. I do think the comparison is warranted. And I object very strongly to the very strong objections Israel makes about the comparison whenever it is made.
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I think that there are parallels particularly in the occupied territories (and of course the regime's reaction to the comparison is ridiculous and suggests a "they do protest too much" type of mentality) but I don't think that it is useful to understand the nature of either Israel's regime or the nature of the israeli population or the continued support for zionist ideology. Most white South Africans had a lot of money and most had places they were able to go back to after the collapse of the apartheid regime. And I have my doubts that the implied solutions to a "south african" style situation (ie sanctions etc) wouldn't do more harm than good. No idea what I'd do instead though. :(
 
littlebabyjesus said:
No, that's not true. Rural Africaaners are not rich and have nowhere else to go.
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that's definitely true and they formed a key bastion of support for the National Party, which was able to sustain their support out of fear (and because of welfare programmes etc) but they didn't make up the majority of the white population. The average white South African was a lot richer than the average Israeli.
 
The argument that sanctions, boycotts etc harm the poorer members of society could be applied to pretty much any country. Its a complex issue but certainly not one that should lead to Israel being given a free pass on as a result.

I dont know how well it would work in practice, in part because I assume that Israel is well used to being isolated on certain fronts, it would still be a shock if applied to certain areas but perhaps not the psychological game changer that it was for South Africa. Its further complicated by Israel doing rather well within the high-tech IT & military industrial complex, their close relationship with the USA, and the somewhat fragile nature of the existence of the Jewish state should it ever become truly isolated. In that sense the stakes are higher and this will cause more hand-wriging should the will otherwise be there to force them into treating Palestinians with respect.
 
Or perhaps I should have said that the psychological implications would be even more dramatic, even more fear in the mix, which may backfire.

I dont know really, in some ways a cultural & academic boycott might hit the minds of fairly well-off Israeli's in a manner that could lead to positive change, and avoid the worst economic fall out for the innocent poor. But its hard to imagine such a thing working if a majority of academics etc from the US were not onboard, and its kind of hard to imagine how they could suddenly get on board that agenda at this point in history.
 
I think stuff like refusing to unload weapons etc bound for israel would have a big impact as it did in south africa.

i suspect that the shock of egypt, turkey etc, who have been "allies" of Israel for a long time, the real possibility of the peace treaty with egypt being not as stable as they once thought it was, growing condemnation with the worldwide jewish diaspora which is where they derive much of their support, where they get most of their new immigrants etc, and also growing industrial/social unrest within israel itself will force them to at least change some of their policies. Also the fact that the USA is not the military and industrial powerhouse that it once was.
 
The companies you posted about - yeah, got no problem with boycotting those. And caterpillar of course that make the israeli bulldozers. They're scum. It's other stuff I'm less sure about.
 
44942_10152322785350005_538846910_n.jpg


The Banksy Xmas card
 
Khaled Meshaal is visiting Gaza. His first visit in 45 years. Quite incredible really given the Israelis habit of shooting every Hamas leader they can over the past few years. An example of how much the resistance won during the recent conflict and ceasefire terms and how much the region has changed that he has the confidence to visit safe in the knowledge that Israel won't, or can't, kill him
 
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