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Israel/Gaza: UK crackdown and backlash

magneze said:
100% agree, it was a really odd thing not to do. He owned Mogg otherwise, but snatched defeat at the end.
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Given how Mogg cuts his interviews short when it suits him I suspect that, had Barnaby done so (and I agree he should), Mogg would have just said "that's all we have time for, thanks".

But yes it makes zero sense not to simplay answer the question
 
Jeff Robinson said:
Obviously Mogg's a cunt, that goes without saying but this is also a peak example of what I call 'the dogshit left' - basically the StWC, SWP, Counterfire and their orbit.



This Barnaby guy makes lots of good points (albeit in his posh, plummy way) but has to take a dogshit turn at the end, when he repeatedly refuses to 'condemn' or even criticise the fascist butchery of Hamas. I know the 'will you condemn' discourse is tedious but in a situation like this why score such an obvious own goal when the government and rightwing media are wrongly portraying ceasefire rallys as pro-Hamas? If he'd said 'yes of course I condemn it, but do you condemn Israel cutting off water, electricity and food supplies etc etc...' it would have been much more rhetorically powerful.

I don't get why the 'anti-imperialist' left are always so dogshit on shit like this. What do they think they gain from strategic ambiguity about murderous terrorist violence or, say, the massacres and war crimes of the Russian State? Do they think standing consistently against oppression and deranged violence somehow waters down their 'anti-imperialist' credentials or something?
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I disagree a bit he repeatedly says he does not justify it. I think he is right not to play along with Mogg's game and to turn it back on him and to avid the trap Mogg is trying to set out.
 
hitmouse said:
Could the various jewbaiters and conspiraloons on here not get their own thread to debate about whether Musk is in the pockets of the International Zionist Conspiracy or bravely leading the resistance to them?

I prefer Radiohead's later stuff myself. If you really think this was a false flag, that seems like another example of the Shit Deep State at work: "Here, shall we whip up a massive nationwide outrage by getting someone to spraypaint the cenotaph?" "Nah, too obvious, people will know it was us." "What if... what if we just do some random monument in Rochdale that no-one's heard of and no-one really cares about that much?" "That's brilliant. No-one will see through that, except for dwyer off urban75, and everyone ignores him because they all think he's a bonkers antisemitic wanker."

The claim that was being disputed is that Elon Musk has reinstated Yaxley-Lennon and Hopkins' xtwitterx accounts because Sunak asked him to, rather than him letting far-right bigots post on his website where he lets far-right bigots post all the time because that's what he does. You're posting a link that shows that Sunak is opposed to Palestine demonstrations happening. It does not support the claim being made. If it even had something like "Sunak says march should be banned because of Yaxley-Lennon/Hopkins post", then it could at least tangentially be claimed as some kind of circumstantial evidence, but it doesn't say that.
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Just put me on ignore, I’ll put you on too. You’ve shown your true colours. Not impressed mate.
 
Knotted said:
Regarding condemnation of the events of 7th October wrt the Barnaby Raine interview. (Was originally posted in response to Wilf but not really aimed at Wilf):




I see it the other way round. Understanding the dark place they were coming from, the desperation of the circumstances, the sheer rage is exactly what moral maturity is about. The various left knee jerks about Hamas being an oppressor in their own right, are simultaneously true and irrelevant and shamefully excuse moral thinking. I don't believe the young men who broke through the fence carried out these atrocities simply because they were following orders of an evil scheming leadership (I'm sure there were instructions of course). How many of us in that situation would do the exact same thing? I'm certain that those who are most quick to condemn would also be the first to go slitting throats. I see morality and moralism as diametric opposites in such a scenario.

There are SWP like anti-imperialist formulae about not condemning eg. the 9/11 attacks. And I would certainly question these formulae (to say the least!). But in contrast to the 911 bombers, the young men in Gaza faced a life time of food insecurity, water insecurity, dependence on aid, literal dependence on the Israeli enemy for necessities and the chance to work, a life without a future. And their children would face the same as would their children and so on. Permanent occupation/blockade. No hope, no future and with Hamas/Qassam Brigades as one of the very few opportunities to make something of themselves. And that's without going into the fact that many of them would have had to bury loved ones due to past Israeli incursions, had their homes destroyed, everything they had built destroyed or seen their hero friends in wheel chairs after the march of return in an even more hopeless, dependant state than they are.

I know most of you will roll your eyes at that second paragraph. The context doesn't matter (you knew about it already anyway). Right is right and wrong is wrong regardless. A basic sense of humanity is a basic sense of humanity. And two wrongs don't make a right. But what is this sense of right and wrong that is abstracted from the human being making the moral decisions?

I think in Gaza as everywhere there should be an aspiration for a sense of morality that is internationalist. An aspiration that understands that the solution whatever it looks like will see Arab and Jew living peacefully together. That's my one moral judgement. But that sense of morality will come with a sense of mission, an actually existing project that provides hope. But they were a long way from an ultimate solution and even a long way from a project of hope. There are those in Gaza who refuse to give up on this aspirational morality, who don't give into to humbled despair or vengeful rage, but that there are praiseworthy individuals does not mean that we can dismiss those who fall short of that standard. I know I'm not in a position to not least because I don't have any ideas that provide hope for them nevermind the ability to point to an actually existing project to provide them hope.

We should understand that Hamas have tried entering into the electoral/democratic process, they have tried negotiation with Israel, they have tried reconciliation with the PA, they have tried peaceful protest. Each of these attempts have been met with violence and at the end of this stint of 15 years of blockade and 75 years of dispossession they have nothing to show and nor do any other faction, the Palestinian cause was getting sidelined and forgotten about while the material situation especially in Gaza was set to gradually deteriorate and its state of dependency sealed permanently. They had no options including doing nothing.

It's probably worth noting that the lefty critics of Hamas were nowhere to be seen during the Great March of Return protests which were absolutely organised by Hamas (because of course they were). Hamas regardless of their role in domestic oppression can and have organised popular resistance of both peaceful and terrorist types. The question is not why Hamas is the organising force, but rather why popular resistance takes these different forms at different times.

And all in all that is why I switch off when people talk about the necessity of condemnation. And that is why Barnaby Raine has just short up in my estimation. (fwiw I thought he did pretty badly otherwise - letting himself get distracted - in that interview.)

And I will also say that it's particularly disappointing to see tactical convenience being counterpoised to questions of morality and especially strange to see such explicitly opportunist counter position framed as maturity.
Click to expand...
Here's an article that articulates some stuff I've been thinking about for a while, one of the first things that came to mind after becoming aware of the killings and kidnappings on the 7th of October because there are so many historical precedents: sexual violence is a fact of every war. Before anyone tries to shout me down with accusations of my having no proof - by no measure is parading a naked, unwilling, terrified woman like a trophy not sexual violence.

I despise and condemn the inhumane treatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli government and their supporters, and what's being done to the people in Gaza is genocide.

That doesn't mean I won't speak out against sexual violence.

(content warning as per the title)

Hamas's attacks are sexual violence against women - we must recognise that
 
Dystopiary said:
Here's an article that articulates some stuff I've been thinking about for a while, one of the first things that came to mind after becoming aware of the killings and kidnappings on the 7th of October because there are so many historical precedents: sexual violence is a fact of every war. Before anyone tries to shout me down with accusations of my having no proof - by no measure is parading a naked, unwilling, terrified woman like a trophy not sexual violence.

I despise and condemn the inhumane treatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli government and their supporters, and what's being done to the people in Gaza is genocide.

That doesn't mean I won't speak out against sexual violence.

(content warning as per the title)

Hamas's attacks are sexual violence against women - we must recognise that
Click to expand...

Not sure you'll find many (hopefully any) people contesting this here. I think all of the violence Hamas committed that day against non-combatants was appalling and can't be excused.
 
Miss-Shelf said:
Have we had Warsi taking down Braverman yet?
Click to expand...


“They create these fires” “they put A against B” “yet another culture war”

So, when Musk meets Sunak and a few days later reinstates 2 prominent fascist agitators is raises valid questions. The tories current MO is wedge issues, its division, its fascism. Having far right agitators getting their reach increased via unbanning from Twitter fits neatly.

Hitmouse is throwing shit about as he’s likely not being frank about how much he’s backing the slaughter in Gaza.
 
Dystopiary said:
Here's an article that articulates some stuff I've been thinking about for a while, one of the first things that came to mind after becoming aware of the killings and kidnappings on the 7th of October because there are so many historical precedents: sexual violence is a fact of every war. Before anyone tries to shout me down with accusations of my having no proof - by no measure is parading a naked, unwilling, terrified woman like a trophy not sexual violence.

I despise and condemn the inhumane treatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli government and their supporters, and what's being done to the people in Gaza is genocide.

That doesn't mean I won't speak out against sexual violence.

(content warning as per the title)

Hamas's attacks are sexual violence against women - we must recognise that
Click to expand...

This occurred to me as well. This is undoubtedly correct. I would expect the violence to reflect the patriarchal violence of society.
 
WhyLikeThis said:
Just put me on ignore, I’ll put you on too. You’ve shown your true colours. Not impressed mate.
Click to expand...
How does the fact that the wee man has now changed his tune and started pretending that he loves free speech and never wanted to ban anything fit into the grand conspiracy masterplan here? I mean, I'm not an expert on this stuff, but if I was going to do a grand conspiracy with Elon Musk and Katie Hopkins to ban a march, I would probably go all the way through with it and actually ban the march, not get cold feet and suddenly start backpedalling. Almost like there's not actually a grand conspiracy at all and Sunak's just a fucking incoherent opportunist.
WhyLikeThis said:
“They create these fires” “they put A against B” “yet another culture war”

So, when Musk meets Sunak and a few days later reinstates 2 prominent fascist agitators is raises valid questions. The tories current MO is wedge issues, its division, its fascism. Having far right agitators getting their reach increased via unbanning from Twitter fits neatly.

Hitmouse is throwing shit about as he’s likely not being frank about how much he’s backing the slaughter in Gaza.
Click to expand...
lmao. Unmasked, and I would've got away with it too if it wasn't for them meddling kids.
 
hitmouse said:
How does the fact that the wee man has now changed his tune and started pretending that he loves free speech and never wanted to ban anything fit into the grand conspiracy masterplan here? I mean, I'm not an expert on this stuff, but if I was going to do a grand conspiracy with Elon Musk and Katie Hopkins to ban a march, I would probably go all the way through with it and actually ban the march, not get cold feet and suddenly start backpedalling. Almost like there's not actually a grand conspiracy at all and Sunak's just a fucking incoherent opportunist.

lmao. Unmasked, and I would've got away with it too if it wasn't for them meddling kids.
Click to expand...

Blimey, what brought this on? You are seeing conspiracy theories where none exist. Obviously some mysterious higher power is pulling your levers.
 
Knotted said:
Regarding condemnation of the events of 7th October wrt the Barnaby Raine interview. (Was originally posted in response to Wilf but not really aimed at Wilf):




I see it the other way round. Understanding the dark place they were coming from, the desperation of the circumstances, the sheer rage is exactly what moral maturity is about. The various left knee jerks about Hamas being an oppressor in their own right, are simultaneously true and irrelevant and shamefully excuse moral thinking. I don't believe the young men who broke through the fence carried out these atrocities simply because they were following orders of an evil scheming leadership (I'm sure there were instructions of course). How many of us in that situation would do the exact same thing? I'm certain that those who are most quick to condemn would also be the first to go slitting throats. I see morality and moralism as diametric opposites in such a scenario.

There are SWP like anti-imperialist formulae about not condemning eg. the 9/11 attacks. And I would certainly question these formulae (to say the least!). But in contrast to the 911 bombers, the young men in Gaza faced a life time of food insecurity, water insecurity, dependence on aid, literal dependence on the Israeli enemy for necessities and the chance to work, a life without a future. And their children would face the same as would their children and so on. Permanent occupation/blockade. No hope, no future and with Hamas/Qassam Brigades as one of the very few opportunities to make something of themselves. And that's without going into the fact that many of them would have had to bury loved ones due to past Israeli incursions, had their homes destroyed, everything they had built destroyed or seen their hero friends in wheel chairs after the march of return in an even more hopeless, dependant state than they are.

I know most of you will roll your eyes at that second paragraph. The context doesn't matter (you knew about it already anyway). Right is right and wrong is wrong regardless. A basic sense of humanity is a basic sense of humanity. And two wrongs don't make a right. But what is this sense of right and wrong that is abstracted from the human being making the moral decisions?

I think in Gaza as everywhere there should be an aspiration for a sense of morality that is internationalist. An aspiration that understands that the solution whatever it looks like will see Arab and Jew living peacefully together. That's my one moral judgement. But that sense of morality will come with a sense of mission, an actually existing project that provides hope. But they were a long way from an ultimate solution and even a long way from a project of hope. There are those in Gaza who refuse to give up on this aspirational morality, who don't give into to humbled despair or vengeful rage, but that there are praiseworthy individuals does not mean that we can dismiss those who fall short of that standard. I know I'm not in a position to not least because I don't have any ideas that provide hope for them nevermind the ability to point to an actually existing project to provide them hope.

We should understand that Hamas have tried entering into the electoral/democratic process, they have tried negotiation with Israel, they have tried reconciliation with the PA, they have tried peaceful protest. Each of these attempts have been met with violence and at the end of this stint of 15 years of blockade and 75 years of dispossession they have nothing to show and nor do any other faction, the Palestinian cause was getting sidelined and forgotten about while the material situation especially in Gaza was set to gradually deteriorate and its state of dependency sealed permanently. They had no options including doing nothing.

It's probably worth noting that the lefty critics of Hamas were nowhere to be seen during the Great March of Return protests which were absolutely organised by Hamas (because of course they were). Hamas regardless of their role in domestic oppression can and have organised popular resistance of both peaceful and terrorist types. The question is not why Hamas is the organising force, but rather why popular resistance takes these different forms at different times.

And all in all that is why I switch off when people talk about the necessity of condemnation. And that is why Barnaby Raine has just short up in my estimation. (fwiw I thought he did pretty badly otherwise - letting himself get distracted - in that interview.)

And I will also say that it's particularly disappointing to see tactical convenience being counterpoised to questions of morality and especially strange to see such explicitly opportunist counter position framed as maturity.
Click to expand...
I mean, someone (who I think is often a bit of an idiot about other things) put it pretty well with an analogy along the lines of "if we were tortured enough, most of us would probably betray our loved ones. But that doesn't mean we have to take this idiotic position of 'well, I'm not being tortured right now, so I have no grounds to say whether or not informing on our family to the Gestapo is a good thing or a bad thing', we can say that informing on your family to the Gestapo is clearly a bad thing while also understanding the circumstances that would lead people to do that".
Idk what the point about lefty critics of Hamas refers to - lefty ones inside of Gaza or outside it? Of course I was nowhere to be seen during the Great March of Return protests cos I don't live in Palestine, is that the point being made here?
Your final sentence is a bit difficult to follow, but I think there's a lot to be said for consequentialist positions, where you judge the morality of an act by its consequences. On which grounds, I think the attacks of October 7th were terrible in and of themselves, they can't be justified by the massive increase in happiness and wellbeing that they've brought about in Gaza in the weeks since then, and I don't see how some posho looking like an idiot in a GBNews video has positive consequences for anyone either.
 
The Welsh parliament has called for a ceasefire.

But the Senedd was divided - 24 politicians supported the Plaid Cymru motion, with 19 against and 13 abstaining.

Shouts of "Free Palestine" were heard from the public gallery after the vote.

Rhun ap Iorwerth, Plaid Cymru leader, said both Hamas' attacks on Israel and the "collective punishment" of Gaza were unjust and inhumane.

The Welsh government has said it would abstain. First Minister Mark Drakeford did not take part in the debate.
Click to expand...
 
hitmouse said:
I mean, someone (who I think is often a bit of an idiot about other things) put it pretty well with an analogy along the lines of "if we were tortured enough, most of us would probably betray our loved ones. But that doesn't mean we have to take this idiotic position of 'well, I'm not being tortured right now, so I have no grounds to say whether or not informing on our family to the Gestapo is a good thing or a bad thing', we can say that informing on your family to the Gestapo is clearly a bad thing while also understanding the circumstances that would lead people to do that".
Idk what the point about lefty critics of Hamas refers to - lefty ones inside of Gaza or outside it? Of course I was nowhere to be seen during the Great March of Return protests cos I don't live in Palestine, is that the point being made here?
Your final sentence is a bit difficult to follow, but I think there's a lot to be said for consequentialist positions, where you judge the morality of an act by its consequences. On which grounds, I think the attacks of October 7th were terrible in and of themselves, they can't be justified by the massive increase in happiness and wellbeing that they've brought about in Gaza in the weeks since then, and I don't see how some posho looking like an idiot in a GBNews video has positive consequences for anyone either.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that reply. It's a good one. I think this question should probably go in its own thread because there's a lot to think about and it will just distract from the immediate topic.

Having said that there are two quick replies to the two points you raise. Your example about the prisoner tortured by the Gestapo does not address the question of whether you condemn the prisoner, which is really the question at hand.

As to consequential morality, how does that morality look in a situation of powerlessness when there are no good consequences?
 
Revisiting WW1 and re-enacting the Balfour Declaration, with Dan Wooton bringing things up to date and drawing where the new borders in Gaza should be
 
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