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Israel/Gaza: UK crackdown and backlash

Jesus fucking Christ. They're not even going past the cenotaph. There have already been several huge protests with zero damage to the cenotaph. Please just buy yourself a cenotaph-shaped dildo and work off some off that tension seeing as you seem to have such a cenotaph fetish.

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Totally agree, 1.3 miles away at the closest point to the Cenotaph (I’m assuming crossing the river at Vauxhall Bridge?) and will probably be 2 hours after the Remembrance ceremony has ended…

IIRC the Palestine Solidarity Campaign are asking people to meet at Hyde Park at 12:00, but as we know, marches - especially one of this size - never get moving at the stated time, more like 13:00 at the earliest. And by the time the head of the march gets to the bridge it will be more like 13:30-14:00.

Without wishing to state the obvious, it’s all such a lot of hysterical Daily Fail bollocks - trying to whip up panic out of nothing; indeed, trying to stir the shit, as it encourages the likes of Yaxley-Lennon to stick his coke-covered beak in. What a shitshow 🤬
 
Like I said, I really hope the fash get bored and drunk at the Cenotaph that No One Is Going Past and kick off at the coppers. That'd be hilarious.

I fear though they'll end up going to the actual protest route to stir shit.

My other half is joining the protest in large part because he wants to be the counter narrative to whatever the media reports afterwards and also to prove to his right wing American cousins that it's not '10,000 people screaming for jihad' :rolleyes:
 
I was just thinking that in many senses poppies are a symbol of the government not giving a fuck about ex service people because they generally need a charity to get any help. So it's a bit rich of her government to harp on about why everyone should be wearing poppies when they leave ex services people and their families homeless, traumatised and destitute.

I have no problem with donating to legion or similar charities because I know service people will disproportionately come from underprivileged backgrounds and frankly deserve some help and support on that account when they are suffering from mental or physical consequences of serving.
Yes, the whole notion of the state out-sourcing after-care for those damaged by their warfare is a shabby deceit in itself. The origins of the RBL derive from the state panicking about the radical demands of ex-servicemen:

 
As much as Soames is correct, this is what passes for 'politics' in the fag-end of this vile series of Tory administrations; just confected factional rifts around "wedge issues" that have little to do with actual lived experiences.

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Dare we say the act of wearing a poppy is just virtue signalling for many people, with little thought about what it actually might mean?
Quite possibly, yes. I know why I wear a poppy; it's to remember my two uncles who fought in WW2 (and who never talked about their war experiences, although I know one was at the D-day landings); my aunt who was a firewatcher; my Mum who was evacuated; etc. And to remember various scalyboy ancestors who were killed during WW1, at Stalingrad, and murdered in the Holocaust. To me , poppies don't signify the glorification of war, but remembrance of ordinary people who died or suffered during WW1 & WW2.

But I can't say what they represent to other people who wear them, or what motivates them to wear one.

I realise the above is a sign of my age, and I realise that for a lot of younger people than me, poppies are associated with more recent and less 'just wars' than WW2.

[PS apols if I'm derailing the thread, as there's usually a dedicated 'poppies, good/bad' thread about this time each year :) ]
 
As much as Soames is correct, this is what passes for 'politics' in the fag-end of this vile series of Tory administrations; just confected factional rifts around "wedge issues" that have little to do with actual lived experiences.

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Most people in Britain were not allowed to vote at the time of the First World War, so it is not true that people died for our freedoms. They died to maintain British imperialism.
 
Love him or hate him, Rowley is clearly more of a stickler for doing what the rules actually says he's supposed do rather than (unlike his immediate predecessor) what will please whoever is in No 10.
Sevenbins and the Queen of Darkness seem to be having a bit of a snit about it.
 
Anyone can spray graffiti. Cui bono?
Well, as always. But they've arrested 2 teenagers for the first of the incidents, so that's unlikely to be a 'false flag'. My pure guess is that the spray painting is also likely to be someone relatively young, but who knows. Must stress, I'm not offended by graffiti on war memorials, cenotaphs are used to play out all sorts of narratives, so why not the Palestinian cause. But graffiti on a memorial doesn't sit well with the way the PSC are pitching their protests. However, as I said in the original post, it's an irrelevance when it comes to thousands being murdered.
 
Love him or hate him, Rowley is clearly more of a stickler for doing what the rules actually says he's supposed do rather than (unlike his immediate predecessor) what will please whoever is in No 10.
Sevenbins and the Queen of Darkness seem to be having a bit of a snit about it.
No, it’s because if he caves on this, he will set a precedent, and that has consequences for the Met, for his career, and for the British peoples relationship with his police, and he will 100% want to stop that happening for at least the first two.
 
Obviously Mogg's a cunt, that goes without saying but this is also a peak example of what I call 'the dogshit left' - basically the StWC, SWP, Counterfire and their orbit.



This Barnaby guy makes lots of good points (albeit in his posh, plummy way) but has to take a dogshit turn at the end, when he repeatedly refuses to 'condemn' or even criticise the fascist butchery of Hamas. I know the 'will you condemn' discourse is tedious but in a situation like this why score such an obvious own goal when the government and rightwing media are wrongly portraying ceasefire rallys as pro-Hamas? If he'd said 'yes of course I condemn it, but do you condemn Israel cutting off water, electricity and food supplies etc etc...' it would have been much more rhetorically powerful.

I don't get why the 'anti-imperialist' left are always so dogshit on shit like this. What do they think they gain from strategic ambiguity about murderous terrorist violence or, say, the massacres and war crimes of the Russian State? Do they think standing consistently against oppression and deranged violence somehow waters down their 'anti-imperialist' credentials or something?
 
Obviously Mogg's a cunt, that goes without saying but this is also a peak example of what I call 'the dogshit left' - basically the StWC, SWP, Counterfire and their orbit.



This Barnaby guy makes lots of good points (albeit in his posh, plummy way) but has to take a dogshit turn at the end, when he repeatedly refuses to 'condemn' or even criticise the fascist butchery of Hamas. I know the 'will you condemn' discourse is tedious but in a situation like this why score such an obvious own goal when the government and rightwing media are wrongly portraying ceasefire rallys as pro-Hamas? If he'd said 'yes of course I condemn it, but do you condemn Israel cutting off water, electricity and food supplies etc etc...' it would have been much more rhetorically powerful.

I don't get why the 'anti-imperialist' left are always so dogshit on shit like this. What do they think they gain from strategic ambiguity about murderous terrorist violence or, say, the massacres and war crimes of the Russian State? Do they think standing consistently against oppression and deranged violence somehow waters down their 'anti-imperialist' credentials or something?

Yeah, all of that. It's an appalling approach in terms of the politics of all this but, just as importantly (if not more) it's appalling in terms of being human and responding in an honest way. It's the immaturity of this kind of politics, 'this is the side I'm with so by definition I won't be honest about what they have also done'. It's all that follows from having 'lines of argument' rather than being honest, positioning rather than having some fucking principles. Yeah, trots, but not just trots doing that. And it's not actually about dancing to the tune of hostile interviewers, it's about being a moral grownup.

If I reduce it to something as simple as posting on this thread, I'll spend most of my time giving voice to the visceral horror I feel about the murders of the Palestinian people. Even more so given that they are trapped in the kill zone, by Israel, the Americans and the West. And decades of that. I think it's fine to have 'more' sympathy for the Palestinian people in those circumstances, given that there's 'more' historic injustice. But if that leaves you unable to saying something in meaningful words about Hamas and the horrors inflicted on the Israeli people on the 7th, fuck no.
 
Yeah, all of that. It's an appalling approach in terms of the politics of all this but, just as importantly (if not more) it's appalling in terms of being human and responding in an honest way. It's the immaturity of this kind of politics, 'this is the side I'm with so by definition I won't be honest about what they have also done'. It's all that follows from having 'lines of argument' rather than being honest, positioning rather than having some fucking principles. Yeah, trots, but not just trots doing that. And it's not actually about dancing to the tune of hostile interviewers, it's about being a moral grownup.

If I reduce it to something as simple as posting on this thread, I'll spend most of my time giving voice to the visceral horror I feel about the murders of the Palestinian people. Even more so given that they are trapped in the kill zone, by Israel, the Americans and the West. And decades of that. I think it's fine to have 'more' sympathy for the Palestinian people in those circumstances, given that there's 'more' historic injustice. But if that leaves you unable to saying something in meaningful words about Hamas and the horrors inflicted on the Israeli people on the 7th, fuck no.

100%
 
No, it’s because if he caves on this, he will set a precedent, and that has consequences for the Met, for his career, and for the British peoples relationship with his police, and he will 100% want to stop that happening for at least the first two.
Probably expecting to remain in post longer than Sunak and Braverman as well
 
Obviously Mogg's a cunt, that goes without saying but this is also a peak example of what I call 'the dogshit left' - basically the StWC, SWP, Counterfire and their orbit.



This Barnaby guy makes lots of good points (albeit in his posh, plummy way) but has to take a dogshit turn at the end, when he repeatedly refuses to 'condemn' or even criticise the fascist butchery of Hamas. I know the 'will you condemn' discourse is tedious but in a situation like this why score such an obvious own goal when the government and rightwing media are wrongly portraying ceasefire rallys as pro-Hamas? If he'd said 'yes of course I condemn it, but do you condemn Israel cutting off water, electricity and food supplies etc etc...' it would have been much more rhetorically powerful.

I don't get why the 'anti-imperialist' left are always so dogshit on shit like this. What do they think they gain from strategic ambiguity about murderous terrorist violence or, say, the massacres and war crimes of the Russian State? Do they think standing consistently against oppression and deranged violence somehow waters down their 'anti-imperialist' credentials or something?

100% agree, it was a really odd thing not to do. He owned Mogg otherwise, but snatched defeat at the end.
 
Could the various jewbaiters and conspiraloons on here not get their own thread to debate about whether Musk is in the pockets of the International Zionist Conspiracy or bravely leading the resistance to them?
Anyone can spray graffiti. Cui bono?
I prefer Radiohead's later stuff myself. If you really think this was a false flag, that seems like another example of the Shit Deep State at work: "Here, shall we whip up a massive nationwide outrage by getting someone to spraypaint the cenotaph?" "Nah, too obvious, people will know it was us." "What if... what if we just do some random monument in Rochdale that no-one's heard of and no-one really cares about that much?" "That's brilliant. No-one will see through that, except for dwyer off urban75, and everyone ignores him because they all think he's a bonkers antisemitic wanker."
Aged like milk.



The claim that was being disputed is that Elon Musk has reinstated Yaxley-Lennon and Hopkins' xtwitterx accounts because Sunak asked him to, rather than him letting far-right bigots post on his website where he lets far-right bigots post all the time because that's what he does. You're posting a link that shows that Sunak is opposed to Palestine demonstrations happening. It does not support the claim being made. If it even had something like "Sunak says march should be banned because of Yaxley-Lennon/Hopkins post", then it could at least tangentially be claimed as some kind of circumstantial evidence, but it doesn't say that.
 
Regarding condemnation of the events of 7th October wrt the Barnaby Raine interview. (Was originally posted in response to Wilf but not really aimed at Wilf):




I see it the other way round. Understanding the dark place they were coming from, the desperation of the circumstances, the sheer rage is exactly what moral maturity is about. The various left knee jerks about Hamas being an oppressor in their own right, are simultaneously true and irrelevant and shamefully excuse moral thinking. I don't believe the young men who broke through the fence carried out these atrocities simply because they were following orders of an evil scheming leadership (I'm sure there were instructions of course). How many of us in that situation would do the exact same thing? I'm certain that those who are most quick to condemn would also be the first to go slitting throats. I see morality and moralism as diametric opposites in such a scenario.

There are SWP like anti-imperialist formulae about not condemning eg. the 9/11 attacks. And I would certainly question these formulae (to say the least!). But in contrast to the 911 bombers, the young men in Gaza faced a life time of food insecurity, water insecurity, dependence on aid, literal dependence on the Israeli enemy for necessities and the chance to work, a life without a future. And their children would face the same as would their children and so on. Permanent occupation/blockade. No hope, no future and with Hamas/Qassam Brigades as one of the very few opportunities to make something of themselves. And that's without going into the fact that many of them would have had to bury loved ones due to past Israeli incursions, had their homes destroyed, everything they had built destroyed or seen their hero friends in wheel chairs after the march of return in an even more hopeless, dependant state than they are.

I know most of you will roll your eyes at that second paragraph. The context doesn't matter (you knew about it already anyway). Right is right and wrong is wrong regardless. A basic sense of humanity is a basic sense of humanity. And two wrongs don't make a right. But what is this sense of right and wrong that is abstracted from the human being making the moral decisions?

I think in Gaza as everywhere there should be an aspiration for a sense of morality that is internationalist. An aspiration that understands that the solution whatever it looks like will see Arab and Jew living peacefully together. That's my one moral judgement. But that sense of morality will come with a sense of mission, an actually existing project that provides hope. But they were a long way from an ultimate solution and even a long way from a project of hope. There are those in Gaza who refuse to give up on this aspirational morality, who don't give into to humbled despair or vengeful rage, but that there are praiseworthy individuals does not mean that we can dismiss those who fall short of that standard. I know I'm not in a position to not least because I don't have any ideas that provide hope for them nevermind the ability to point to an actually existing project to provide them hope.

We should understand that Hamas have tried entering into the electoral/democratic process, they have tried negotiation with Israel, they have tried reconciliation with the PA, they have tried peaceful protest. Each of these attempts have been met with violence and at the end of this stint of 15 years of blockade and 75 years of dispossession they have nothing to show and nor do any other faction, the Palestinian cause was getting sidelined and forgotten about while the material situation especially in Gaza was set to gradually deteriorate and its state of dependency sealed permanently. They had no options including doing nothing.

It's probably worth noting that the lefty critics of Hamas were nowhere to be seen during the Great March of Return protests which were absolutely organised by Hamas (because of course they were). Hamas regardless of their role in domestic oppression can and have organised popular resistance of both peaceful and terrorist types. The question is not why Hamas is the organising force, but rather why popular resistance takes these different forms at different times.

And all in all that is why I switch off when people talk about the necessity of condemnation. And that is why Barnaby Raine has just short up in my estimation. (fwiw I thought he did pretty badly otherwise - letting himself get distracted - in that interview.)

And I will also say that it's particularly disappointing to see tactical convenience being counterpoised to questions of morality and especially strange to see such explicitly opportunist counter position framed as maturity.
 
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