Immigration "small benefit" to UK

[durruti02]

Sorry, don't get you. No to building strong unions and recruiting migrant workers? I'm sure you don't mean that.

What exactly would you shout from the rooftops? Tell me exactly what you'd shout

E2A: you edited your post.

Everyone knows the effects of immigration - the point is to respond practically to it, unless you want the state to do somethign about it, but you know I don't

yes everyone appears to know the effects of immigration but the left .. the swp deny there is an issue, the SP do, but keep quiet about it and respect are in favour .. actually PR had a very good article on neo liberal immigration (possibly written by a urban poster who may or may not have been influenced by discussions on here! )

so WHO talks of immigration on the doorstep??? the right and far right .. we have left an enormous vacuum for the right by absenting oursleves from this debate , OR WORSE , declaring there is nothing to worry about

 

[tarannau]

er no .. we already agree on that .. i'm talking about shouting about how immigration is used .. that if, as you accept, the bosses are using immigration, we have to shout that from the roof tops .. cos, as you know, if WE don't , the bnp ARE .. and they are making it racial ..

What a daft binary opposition. You seem to make things so ridiculously oversimplified to the point of crass stupidity.

Some bosses may use immigration, others may not. Christ, credit people with a little intelligence and the ability to decide for themselves - migrants aren't some homogenous group of patsies without any free thought.

Grow up and stop being so damn simplistic. And cut the dumb CAPITALS and shouting out - it unfortunately emphasises the jaw-dropping stupidity of the false oppositions you set up.

 

[tbaldwin]

yes everyone appears to know the effects of immigration but the left .. the swp deny there is an issue, the SP do, but keep quiet about it and respect are in favour .. actually PR had a very good article on neo liberal immigration (possibly written by a urban poster who may or may not have been influenced by discussions on here! )

so WHO talks of immigration on the doorstep??? the right and far right .. we have left an enormous vacuum for the right by absenting oursleves from this debate , OR WORSE , declaring there is nothing to worry about

I do think though there are more and more people on the left who do want to tackle the subject. More and more people who look at what effect it has on different classes and realise that the orthodox left position is totally wrong and out of date.

 

[durruti02]

What a daft binary opposition. You seem to make things so ridiculously oversimplified to the point of crass stupidity.

Some bosses may use immigration, others may not. Christ, credit people with a little intelligence and the ability to decide for themselves - migrants aren't some homogenous group of patsies without any free thought.

Grow up and stop being so damn simplistic. And cut the dumb CAPITALS and shouting out - it unfortunately emphasises the jaw-dropping stupidity of the false oppositions you set up.

tarannau .. i have made it clear on many many occasions i am referring to immigration as part of neo-liberalism i.e. for the purposes of low wages etc, NOT to immigration in general ( tbh that has been the whole thing i have said for 2 years and more but hey)

 

[Spion]

tarannau .. i have made it clear on many many occasions i am referring to immigration as part of neo-liberalism i.e. for the purposes of low wages etc, NOT to immigration in general ( tbh that has been the whole thing i have said for 2 years and more but hey)

That's the problem with what you say. You're treating immigration as a problem, when the evidence is at best mixed. While you seem to be doing the right thing in practice you seem to want to howl along with the bosses' racist press and the mainstream politicians' hysteria to no practical end apart from making some sort of dodgy generalised point about immigration. Dangerous stuff

 

[tbaldwin]

That's the problem with what you say. You're treating immigration as a problem, when the evidence is at best mixed. While you seem to be doing the right thing in practice you seem to want to howl along with the bosses' racist press and the mainstream politicians' hysteria to no practical end apart from making some sort of dodgy generalised point about immigration. Dangerous stuff

I dont agree spion. Even if what you say is right that it is at best mixed..Then for some people it is a problem....So what do you say to them?

The practical end of raising the issue is to look at the international and national consequences of economic migration...To ignorethem and still call yourself a socialist seems daft to me...

 

[Spion]

I dont agree spion. Even if what you say is right that it is at best mixed..Then for some people it is a problem....So what do you say to them?

The practical end of raising the issue is to look at the international and national consequences of economic migration...To ignorethem and still call yourself a socialist seems daft to me...

That's not practical. That's engaging in impractical, wrong and dangerous theorising

Practically we should be building unions and fighting for better pay, more jobs, more housing etc and demanding the rich fund it through increased taxation on high incomes

There have been years of assault on the w/c resulting in piss poor wages, long hours, lack of housing, cash strapped services - to all of a sudden claim that it's not years of Thacher and Blairite policies but is the fault of immigration is just plain wrong and reeks of being drawn rightwards by the bosses' press and politicians' hysteria

 

[tbaldwin]

That's not practical. That's engaging in impractical, wrong and dangerous theorising

Practically we should be building unions and fighting for better pay, more jobs, more housing etc and demanding the rich fund it through increased taxation on high incomes

There have been years of assault on the w/c resulting in piss poor wages, long hours, lack of housing, cash strapped services - to all of a sudden claim that it's not years of Thacher and Blairite policies but is the fault of immigration is just plain wrong and reeks of being drawn rightwards by the bosses' press and politicians' hysteria

Of course wages and conditions are not just driven down by immigration.
Thatcher smashed the miners and steelworkers etc etc not cos of immigration but because of her beliefs and policies....
But immigration is as you say mixed....It is not in itself a good or bad thing...but can be both......And at the moment the bad things nationally and internationally too me far outweigh the good...
I think its a disgrace that people on the left do not speak out more against the effect on poorer nations of taking their skilled workers.
I think it is highly dishonest of people to ignore the different effects that migrants have on different people in this country. I think it is preety daft of the left to ignore the views of what should be its natural support, working class people who are competing for housing and jobs with a huge influx of new migrants from poland etc.

 

[Fruitloop]

Oh well, it looks like the pound might go down the plughole compared to the euro, so maybe Britain won't look like such a great idea to all them migrants after all.

 

[durruti02]

That's the problem with what you say. You're treating immigration as a problem, when the evidence is at best mixed. While you seem to be doing the right thing in practice you seem to want to howl along with the bosses' racist press and the mainstream politicians' hysteria to no practical end apart from making some sort of dodgy generalised point about immigration. Dangerous stuff

no it is MORE dangerous to NOT enter the debate .. all you and the left are doing is leaving it WIDE open to the right .. who are making hay ..

and you say 'to no practical end' .. sorry that is bizarre! the practical end is the rebuilding of the lost link of progressive ideas to ordinary people .. about as practical as it gets ..

and immigration, as it is being used lately, IS a problem for the w/c movement .. it is being used to attacks wages, union organisation and communities .. you have admitteded this .. so if we accept this we need to say it surely??

 

[durruti02]

That's not practical. That's engaging in impractical, wrong and dangerous theorising

Practically we should be building unions and fighting for better pay, more jobs, more housing etc and demanding the rich fund it through increased taxation on high incomes

There have been years of assault on the w/c resulting in piss poor wages, long hours, lack of housing, cash strapped services - to all of a sudden claim that it's not years of Thacher and Blairite policies but is the fault of immigration is just plain wrong and reeks of being drawn rightwards by the bosses' press and politicians' hysteria

who ever ever ever has suggested that immigration is the ONLY element in neo liberalism?????? .. No one!! .. absolutely fucking no one .. and after all you have agreed with me up the thread it is bizarre you return to this .. we agree on most things .. this debate is that, utterly illogically, much of the left deny that immigration is used as part of neo liberlaism .. and if they DO accept it are scared to stand up and say ..

and again no one disagrees with "Practically we should be building unions and fighting for better pay, more jobs, more housing etc and demanding the rich fund it through increased taxation on high incomes"


BUT to deny the ROLE of immigration is crazy, especially as it is a KEY ideological tool being used by the far/right .. it HAS to be confronted from a class position .. and that means acknowledging what is going on, why and how it affects w/c people

w/c people are as you well know are not stupid ... but if NO one else is willing to attack the use of immigration or the contempt ordinary people are treated with by the state, than the BNP ( who are NOT anti immigration and are petty bourgois and simply racist) they will drift to them (and are doing so in droves)

the contempt of teh bosses for both the non migrant and migrant worker is a massive opportunity for progressive politics .. the left are incapable of acting on this

 

[Spion]

BUT to deny the ROLE of immigration is crazy, especially as it is a KEY ideological tool being used by the far/right .. it HAS to be confronted from a class position .. and that means acknowledging what is going on, why and how it affects w/c people

I acknowledge that immigration has *some* effects, tho they are by no means uniformly negative.

Now what? Beyond the practical steps of building strong unions and recruiting newly migrant workers - the only true w/c position - I don't see what else there is to do.

Unless it is to make abstract propaganda about immigration as the root of all evils. In which case I don't agree. It is far from being *the* most pernicious force acting against the w/c - to say it is to accept the right's fetishisation of it.

Tell me in bullet form the 2/3/4 most important things you'd say to someone about immigration.

Oh, and please talk to me, not some 'left' you're dreaming about

 

[audiotech]

BUT to deny the ROLE of immigration is crazy, especially as it is a KEY ideological tool being used by the far/right .. it HAS to be confronted from a class position .. and that means acknowledging what is going on, why and how it affects w/c people

A recent poll carried out by Newsnight found this:

A majority of white working class believed that immigration had been good for the country.

An even bigger majority, 71 percent of the working class, believed that most immigrants into Britain end up "fitting in here if they are given sufficient time to do so".

While most people believed that new immigrants have increased pressure on public services, few believed that immigration had put their own jobs at risk or had any reverse affect on their wages.

73 percent of the white working class believed that the NHS could not function without the help of foreign-born and foreign-trained staff.

Only 21 percent of white working class people listed immigration as the single most negative aspect of British life.

While it is clear that there is deep unease about immigration, the issue is not as clear cut as it once was, or as some would have us believe.

 

[dennisr]

A recent poll carried out by Newsnight found this:

A majority of white working class believed that immigration had been good for the country.

An even bigger majority, 71 percent of the working class, believed that most immigrants into Britain end up "fitting in here if they are given sufficient time to do so".

While most people believed that new immigrants have increased pressure on public services, few believed that immigration had put their own jobs at risk or had any reverse affect on their wages.

73 percent of the white working class believed that the NHS could not function without the help of foreign-born and foreign-trained staff.

Only 21 percent of white working class people listed immigration as the single most negative aspect of British life.

While it is clear that there is deep unease about immigration, the issue is not as clear cut as it once was, or as some would have us believe.

Useful information mate - do you know owt about the way this was gathered, size of the sample etc?

 

[audiotech]

Useful information mate - do you know owt about the way this was gathered, size of the sample etc?

A thousand white working class people were polled.

The poll does highlight considerable unease, but a more detailed look at the findings provides a more complicated picture, which is sometimes contradictory such as this:

But is there evidence that immigration is to blame for what people like Gary and Marie feel is happening to white working class communities like theirs?

Both conceded that immigration hasn't actually impacted directly on their lives. Shirland - an old mining village - remains almost exclusively white.

So, no impact on their lives, but still the 'perception, fear of immigration overwhelming'?

Since the pit closed in the mid-60s, jobs have been hard to find and like many such working class communities life can be tough. But the perception, even fear, of immigration was almost overwhelming for both of them. And they were not alone.

Maybe this comment sums it up?

People have limited opinions of things they haven't experienced themselves,.... So what do they do? Blame it on something that people have no knowledge of.

If you watch the report, the contradictions and it should be said the prejudicial comments are glaring.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/7281314.stm

 

[durruti02]

hi MC the survey sounds about right .. but you maybe you have missed the point abbout this whole discussion as the survey is not really relevent to this discussion .. whihc i believe is how the bosses have used immigration

1- it has not to my knowledge been alledged by me or others that this is a white issue .. in fact it has been stated many times that those worst affected are PREVIOUS immigrants who have been pushed out of employment

2- again the 'fittting in' has from me has never been an issue

3- the nhs figure is right of course ...but only in the immediate .. ofg course immigrants do, generally, sterling service for the nhs .. but it is irrelevent .. the question was wrong .. i would have asked 'would it not be better to train up and employ local youth than import labour to do these very important jobs?' .. and i suspect OVER 73% would agree with that

4) and the single most important issue?? well i would say that 21% is then VERY high .. as clearly it is NOT the single most important issue

there is nothing in there undermines the arguement that cheap labour immigration it is a key policy for the neo liberals

couple of other points

there is a right contradiction on housing allocation in there - a maj believe local connection AND immediate needs should be priority ..

and the ending note of resignation and pessimism is depressing

i notice you did NOT highlight that 88% of w/c said 'it is not immigration i am against but uncontrolled immigration'

tbh i think this proves what i have said all along say .. that it is NOT immigration or immigrants that are a problem for w/c people BUT what the bosses are doing with it.. and it is clearly an issue

and you got your KEY stat wrong .. a majority 52% of these white w/c people believe immigration is bad .. not good ( see bottom of page 15)

the question on 'richness' is funny .. with the middle classes in favour ( nannies and restaurants) and w/c against

 

[durruti02]

I acknowledge that immigration has *some* effects, tho they are by no means uniformly negative.

Now what? Beyond the practical steps of building strong unions and recruiting newly migrant workers - the only true w/c position - I don't see what else there is to do.

Unless it is to make abstract propaganda about immigration as the root of all evils. In which case I don't agree. It is far from being *the* most pernicious force acting against the w/c - to say it is to accept the right's fetishisation of it.

Tell me in bullet form the 2/3/4 most important things you'd say to someone about immigration.

Oh, and please talk to me, not some 'left' you're dreaming about

"abstract propaganda about immigration as the root of all evils" LOL where the hell does that come from??? sorry but you mke these thins up LOL

of course immmigration is NOT pernicious LOL .. but it IS being USED .. and that is what we must talk of .. as OTHERS will say ( abnd are getting an audiance ) that is is totally pernicious

the propaganda would attack the BOSSES for USING and ABUSING immigration .. it is a win win

bullets? of the top of my head

1) immigration is being used
2) immigrants are like you and me .. they simply want to do the best for themselves and their families
3) they are being used for cheap labour OR to get around taxing the rich to pay for training etc
4) the bosses ( who are overwhelmingly wasp) should NOT be allowed to use cheap labour (pay low rates) - of any origin - unemployed, women, migrant
5) they should be forced by w/c pressure to employ locally at proper rates


this is NOT abstract, not divisive and has the possibility of appealling to the vast majority of w/c people who have given up on the left AND unions who they be;lieve have betrayed them

spion we are at year zero in terms of the left . i believe you have some knowledge of the history of the left .. surely you agree with me that 1) the left have not been weaker for decades ( at least 50 years maybe 100) and 2) they have more worryingly, never been so weak vis a vis the far right .. and all at a time when we are NOT even yet in a proper crisis

 

[audiotech]

i notice you did NOT highlight that 88% of w/c said 'it is not immigration i am against but uncontrolled immigration'

Immigration isn't 'uncontrolled'.

 

[audiotech]

and you got your KEY stat wrong .. a majority 52% of these white w/c people believe immigration is bad .. not good ( see bottom of page 15)

I should have written that a majority of the white population think immigration has been a good thing though.

 

[audiotech]

4) and the single most important issue?? well i would say that 21% is then VERY high .. as clearly it is NOT the single most important issue

21 percent is a little more than a fifth, but less than a quarter.

 

[audiotech]

tbh i think this proves what i have said all along say .. that it is NOT immigration or immigrants that are a problem for w/c people BUT what the bosses are doing with it.. and it is clearly an issue

A majority believe that their job has not been put at risk by immigration.

A majority disagree that immigration has made it harder to get a fair wage for the work they do.

 

[audiotech]

there is nothing in there undermines the arguement that cheap labour immigration it is a key policy for the neo liberals

Cheap labour all round I would have thought.

 

[audiotech]

.. i would have asked 'would it not be better to train up and employ local youth than import labour to do these very important jobs?' ..

Have you asked the local youth if they are happy with this?

 

[audiotech]

1- ...in fact it has been stated many times that those worst affected are PREVIOUS immigrants who have been pushed out of employment

Don't see any evidence for this fact?

 

[audiotech]

2- again the 'fittting in' has from me has never been an issue

Just keep it local and all will be well eh?

 

[durruti02]

Have you asked the local youth if they are happy with this?

he he though i suspect many would tbh if it was proper training

 

[durruti02]

Don't see any evidence for this fact?

really? that is acknowledged by pretty well everyone .. each successive group of migrants is used to undercut the previous one

 

[durruti02]

Immigration isn't 'uncontrolled'.

as far as the bosss are concerned it is .. for individual migrants yes it is to an extent ..

 

[durruti02]

I should have written that a majority of the white population think immigration has been a good thing though.

fair play but the important discussion for the left is w/c people

 

[durruti02]

21 percent is a little more than a fifth, but less than a quarter.

thank you carol