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Immigration "small benefit" to UK

It's not natural because it hasn't always existed. There was no such thing as a free market in labour or land, not to a large extent of goods, before the 1640s (in the UK).

And yes, I think that particular historical episode will have to be coerced out of existence by the majority of people planning what we do with the earth's resources to meet our needs rather than line the pockets of a few property owners.

Well, I have to disagree. People are free to do what they want, and if what they want to do is sell their labour, then they should be free to do it. But what shouldn't happen is that they should be forced to sell their labour, or have nowhere to live.

And if you want a coercive government to stop them, -- well I think that's a really bad idea. Because giving the government powers of coercion is one of the roots of the problem.

Give everyone the right to live wherever they live for free, and make rent and mortgage unenforceable, and you'd have a good chance of things evolving well, - try and use a government to make things evolve well by constraining people's freedom, and you can be sure that they'll evolve badly.
 
If you've found a post where you agree with something I've said why not just say so instead of turning it into another fight?

Anyway, good work on the unionisation front. It seems to me you're doing exactly the right thing.

But, I'm puzzled, do you ever practice what you were preaching the other day by denying incoming workers and favouring 'local' ones?

1) spion .. i did not think i had done that but sorry if it seems i did .. i do NOT seek fights and if it seems that way i apologise .. i just argue my point strongly! :D

2) thank you

3) a bit .. i have been proposing to my area stewards committee (with total support as it happens ) to take to our branch committee for a campaign for our employer to actively recruit more locally, including a massive increase in local apprenticeships, and to get rid of agency .. but due to other committments i have not put as much time into this as i said i would do .. i would like to pick up on this later in the year and as possiblly something to take to national conference

and i argue the same at every relevent ljc ( union - management meeting)

most public sector organisations have lost the local employment link to a large scale, with negative results in the communities and amongst staff commitment. this needs to be addressed, particuarly with the deeply disturbing and dramatic increases in killings amongst youth lately in my area .. ( by the way i agreed with positive employment practice in the 8ts to get LA staff ratios more similar to local communities )
 
It's really not that difficult. Why can't you work it out for yourself. ?

You seem to think we should ahve open borders, and solidarity with all working class people. And that the proper left-wing response to the problem of falling wages is to persuade the people from other countries to join unions and not accept lower wages.

Well suppose you've done that, successfully, and you're a union rep, and then, as it turns out, you;'ve got loads of Poles in the welders union, and you've agreed that no-one in the union will accept less than £10 per hour for welding. But then a bunch of romanians come to England, perhaps specially brought here by unscrupulous employers, who tell them work for us for £6 per hour and don't join the union or you'll be sacked.

Now your unionised poles start coming to you, and saying, look we've lost our jobs, we can't get any work for £10 per hour, we're going to have to take work for less, because otherwise we're not going to be able to pay the rent.

What do you tell them?


good post again
 
I don't understand how the ones in place lost their jobs exactly, but that would be the place to start with the threat of strike action to defend the existing jobs and wage levels, spreading it to other companies/sites - "No wage cuts, no sacking/redundancies"

Of course, it's not easy, and it's an ongoing thing - but it's the right thing to do, and the only one that can really work, while also ensuring workers begin to control their own destiny.

All you seem to want to do is to try to mobilise the state controlled by the bosses to protect jobs that they want to ensure are as low paid and 'flexible' as possible. It's a ludicrous idea

so you agree with me after all? .. stop the employer sacking staff and bringing in low paid workers? so you are against the bosses using immigrants to undercut existing workers/wages etc
 
so you agree with me after all? .. stop the employer sacking staff and bringing in low paid workers? so you are against the bosses using immigrants to undercut existing workers/wages etc
I'm against the bosses using anyone to undercut existing workers. That starts with defending existing conditions and not allowing pay cuts and layoffs and continues to fighting for better wages and more jobs and housing for all. I'm just against state immigration controls
 
1) spion .. i did not think i had done that but sorry if it seems i did .. i do NOT seek fights and if it seems that way i apologise .. i just argue my point strongly! :D

2) thank you

3) a bit .. i have been proposing to my area stewards committee (with total support as it happens ) to take to our branch committee for a campaign for our employer to actively recruit more locally, including a massive increase in local apprenticeships, and to get rid of agency .. but due to other committments i have not put as much time into this as i said i would do .. i would like to pick up on this later in the year and as possiblly something to take to national conference

and i argue the same at every relevent ljc ( union - management meeting)

most public sector organisations have lost the local employment link to a large scale, with negative results in the communities and amongst staff commitment. this needs to be addressed, particuarly with the deeply disturbing and dramatic increases in killings amongst youth lately in my area .. ( by the way i agreed with positive employment practice in the 8ts to get LA staff ratios more similar to local communities )

Well, that sounds alright to me. :) Maybe I'll look again in the morning to see where I can disagree with it ;)
 
Well, I have to disagree. People are free to do what they want, and if what they want to do is sell their labour, then they should be free to do it. But what shouldn't happen is that they should be forced to sell their labour, or have nowhere to live.
But that is exactly the situation we face. The vast majority are forced to sell their labour


And if you want a coercive government to stop them, -- well I think that's a really bad idea. Because giving the government powers of coercion is one of the roots of the problem.
I don't mean 'government' in the sense you take it. I mean government as in government of workers and their communities organised in democratic bodies. And I mean that they should enforce their will to produce what they decide they need not what is profitable to a tiny minority of property holders

Give everyone the right to live wherever they live for free, and make rent and mortgage unenforceable, and you'd have a good chance of things evolving well
Have you dreamt this up all by yourself? It's an odd and utopian scheme - one where you want to neutralise major chunks that hold up the law of the existing society but not deal with the root of it - private property. And it's not like you could do any of it without having some serious armed force behind it.
 
God you're being unpleasant. And really determined to disagree for the sake of it..so much so that you don't even appear to read what I say, because you've already decided to disagree

I'm perfectly well aware that the notion of private property is a new invention, and it's one that I'm opposed to. That's what I mean by saying that the root of the problem is the enforcement of the rights of landlords.
Well you're very confusing. I don't see how you can be against private property and be for the free market. What on earth would people buy and sell in your free market if they have no property to produce goods with? You'll have to explain that one to me
 
Can you read?

it's not that difficult to understand. Any more than the last thing you couldn't understand was difficult to answer. You appear to be just trying to wind me up.
 
MC pull the other one .. poster after poster on urban has said immigration does NOT affect anyone and is in fact GOOD for us .. this has got less and less recently as people are starting to open their eyes

Don't talk like a twat durruti02. :)

No one has denied that immigration has an affect for Christs sake. :rolleyes:

Speaking of Christ? :D Saved any immigrant souls recently, whilst preaching the gospel? :D
 
Can you read?

it's not that difficult to understand. Any more than the last thing you couldn't understand was difficult to answer. You appear to be just trying to wind me up.
It may make sense in your head, but it doesn't translate to mine. You'll need to explain. Sorry
 
Well it's fairly simple, - it's a starting point, one that compromises between those who own and those who don't.

It's a way of trying to set upa starting point so that things have the chance of evolving well, rather than trying to enforce your destination and so fail.

You continue with things as they are now, - a free market, preferably making it more free. But you also ensure that everyone has the right to live wherever they currently live for free.

Maybe it would be good if farming was nationalised as well, but, personally I don't see the point in going on about how things ought to be without some plan of how to get there.
 
You continue with things as they are now, - a free market, preferably making it more free. But you also ensure that everyone has the right to live wherever they currently live for free.
Ri-i-i-i-i-ght. So the banks, building societies and landlords are all going to settle for this are they? They'll just turn round and say, 'OK, it's the main source of our vast incomes, but hey people, just live for free.'?

Can I have some of whatever you've been smoking? :D
 
Well there's no way of changing things that's going to be popular with everyone.

Would you prefer to pay for a place to live, or have one for free?

Guessing that you'd prefer to have one for free, maybe most people are much the same.

So who'd lose? The banks, building societies, and landlords who rent-out properties, but not owner-occupiers and tenants. So I reckon you could find a majority of people would like the idea. And if they like the idea, then maybe under the right circumstances they could be willing to vote for it.

Banks and building societies can't vote, so they're kind of irrelevant to whether the idea could be popular.

But the banks and building societies that depend for their liquidity on mortgage repayments, well they'd go bust. Shit. So loads of people would lose their savings. Can we have that?


Well, if you agree with that argument, then in a way you're with all the capitalists who'll repeat for ever that there is no alternative to the system we've got, plus minor tinkering. Personally, I think that it's a fact that radical change would involve radical change, and that's unavoidable. Do you disagree?

Alternatively, if you don't want people to lose their savings, you could bail out the banks, by printing shedloads of money, which would probably cause a still larger devaluation of the pound.

But there's something to be said for big devaluations, as we'd be able to compete better in the global market. And of course if housing was free, then people's overheads would be a great deal lower.

But, yes it is utopian, -- Pie in the sky if you like, -- these days utterly unrealistic. How could I deny that? All the same I think it's no more pie in the sky than your politics, - and tastier as well.

The idea came out of discussions with capitalists about the problems of capitalism.

Their line is always. So what's your alternative to a free market.
Or alternatively, but socialism doesn't work, look at Russia etc etc.

So I was trying to think of something that wasn't vulnerable to these standard criticisms, something that wasn't tainted by the general negative perception people have of "socialism"

The problem with old-style socialism seems to have generally been that the attempt to run a planned economy from the top down, results in a large inefficient and unpleasant bureaucracy. So best avoid that, - stick with the free market. How can you make sure people have enough time and optimism that you can reasonably hope that they'll get together and really participate in a local democracy and decide how to run things best for themselves, -e.g. decide, who should run that farm, what sort of bus service do they want, - shall we keep this factory going? My idea was that the most pressing problem with the current system is the total lack of freedom, as people are enslaved to their rent or their mortgage with the fear of homelessness to keep them at it, and no time to stop and consider whether there are other options, and a general bad mood, besides.

There are plenty of people begging on the streets who once had a family, and kept at it and kept at it, until they cracked under the strain, lost their job, then lost their house, and then lost their family.

As far as I can see there's two things that keep the system going, one is the expectation that people have for a return on their money. And the other is the need people have to keep working to create that return for the owners or lose their house.

Cut those two out, and you'd find that capitalism would be over, and that free markets without capitalism would turn out to be pretty good.
 
And I suppose my attachment to the ideas above explains why I think you need to discriminate between citizens and non-citizens.

Because one of the ideas I quite like is that by being a good place to live, Britain could have done quite well as a tourist economy, - a fun place to visit. But, if you want to make money as a tourist economy, then you can't extend the right to live wherever you can find a place to live, for free to visitors to the country. So you'd have to discriminate. Because although my ideas are pretty unrealistic, they don't seem to me to be quite as unrealistic as thinking that everyone in the world should be entitled to live here for free.
 
I'm against the bosses using anyone to undercut existing workers. That starts with defending existing conditions and not allowing pay cuts and layoffs and continues to fighting for better wages and more jobs and housing for all. I'm just against state immigration controls
ok so we totally agree .. what about this .. ok do you agree we need to make more noise and activity around thsi issue? and expose how the bosses are using migrants?
 
Don't talk like a twat durruti02. :)

No one has denied that immigration has an affect for Christs sake. :rolleyes:

Speaking of Christ? :D Saved any immigrant souls recently, whilst preaching the gospel? :D

he he i preach the gospel of the church of marx beyond marx :D

( p.s. people DID deny ( just look no don't it is a waste of time but i do not lie ) this until recently )
 
hi demo .. unusual and interesting ideas that initially i do not agree with but would like to hear more .. ( sort of anarcho cpaitalism? ken macloud? ) would be good to hear more on a new thread?
 
Durruti, I wouldn't want to call it "anarcho-capitalism".

One of the big problems I've observed in political debate over the last 10 years is that most people equate socialism with command economies, and capitalism with free markets.

My view is that free markets are a good idea, but capitalism is a bad idea
Whereas socialism is a good idea, but command economies are a bad idea.

By capitalism I understand a system based on the enforcement of contracts extended in time, where money and land are rented out.
In contrast I think the ebay model of a transaction, where it's completed in one go is a good model.

The ideas were my attempt a while ago to dream up some new politics that would compromise between old-fashioned socialism and unfettered capitalism, taking the sting out of the capitalist argument that we have to have free markets, by acknowledging the truth of that.
The idea is that good government consists not in trying to legislate into existence the detail of how you think things should be, but legislating the big picture so as to set up the conditions where people can sort out the details in the way they think best, - and want to do it well.

And the idea was to try to put forward a new idea for a radical consensus on how to change things democratically, - a new idea that would at least give the electorate an alternative, if put forward in a credible way.

I think the boat has been missed, even if there ever was a chance of catching it. My guess is the last chance we had to change things was at the last election. So it doesn't much matter really.

But, I could be wrong, I wouldn't want to dampen anyone's idealism, if anyone still has any.

I think free market economies only become really bad when they're combined with a permanent demand for growth, created by basing the system on lending money at interest, - and an enforcement of the rights of landlords, making it impossible for people to survive without working full time.
 
Durruti, I wouldn't want to call it "anarcho-capitalism".

One of the big problems I've observed in political debate over the last 10 years is that most people equate socialism with command economies, and capitalism with free markets.

My view is that free markets are a good idea, but capitalism is a bad idea
Whereas socialism is a good idea, but command economies are a bad idea.

By capitalism I understand a system based on the enforcement of contracts extended in time, where money and land are rented out.
In contrast I think the ebay model of a transaction, where it's completed in one go is a good model.

The ideas were my attempt a while ago to dream up some new politics that would compromise between old-fashioned socialism and unfettered capitalism, taking the sting out of the capitalist argument that we have to have free markets, by acknowledging the truth of that.
The idea is that good government consists not in trying to legislate into existence the detail of how you think things should be, but legislating the big picture so as to set up the conditions where people can sort out the details in the way they think best, - and want to do it well.

And the idea was to try to put forward a new idea for a radical consensus on how to change things democratically, - a new idea that would at least give the electorate an alternative, if put forward in a credible way.

I think the boat has been missed, even if there ever was a chance of catching it. My guess is the last chance we had to change things was at the last election. So it doesn't much matter really.

But, I could be wrong, I wouldn't want to dampen anyone's idealism, if anyone still has any.

I think free market economies only become really bad when they're combined with a permanent demand for growth, created by basing the system on lending money at interest, - and an enforcement of the rights of landlords, making it impossible for people to survive without working full time.

you couldn't cut an paste this to a new thread could you please? i think it is worthy of more debate but not on here :)
 
ok so we totally agree .. what about this .. ok do you agree we need to make more noise and activity around thsi issue?
more noise and activity about building strong unions so that pay and conditions cannot be undercut and recruiting migrants to unions? Abso-fuckin-lutely!
 
It's not surprising that leftism is so woefully useless, when it has representatives like you to promulgate it so utterly lacking in insight, imagination, and understanding of the way most people see things.
 
It's not surprising that leftism is so woefully useless, when it has representatives like you to promulgate it so utterly lacking in insight, imagination, and understanding of the way most people see things.
Most people think we should abolish interest and property landlordism do they? I must've missed that
 
Most people think we should abolish interest and property landlordism do they? I must've missed that

Case in point about your utter lack of insight and imagination.

Only a total idiot could think that what I posted means that most people think we should abolish interest and property landlordism.

In fact I doubt you even think that, you're just once again using the technique of pretending to misinterpret, because you've got nothing to say but want to disagree anyway.

eta: Though, when I've asked people, pretty much everyone does say that they'd prefer not to have to pay for the place they live.
 
more noise and activity about building strong unions so that pay and conditions cannot be undercut and recruiting migrants to unions? Abso-fuckin-lutely!


er no .. we already agree on that :D .. i'm talking about shouting about how immigration is used .. that if, as you accept, the bosses are using immigration, we have to shout that from the roof tops .. cos, as you know, if WE don't , the bnp ARE .. and they are making it racial ..
 
er no .. if as you accept the bosses are using immigration we have to shout that from the roof tops .. cos, as you know, if WE don't the bnp ARE .. and they are making it racial ..
Sorry, don't get you. No to building strong unions and recruiting migrant workers? I'm sure you don't mean that.

What exactly would you shout from the rooftops? Tell me exactly what you'd shout

E2A: you edited your post.

Everyone knows the effects of immigration - the point is to respond practically to it, unless you want the state to do somethign about it, but you know I don't
 
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