Immigration "small benefit" to UK

[audiotech]

 

[audiotech]

fair play but the important discussion for the left is w/c people

Well a comment quoted below on the SU blog suggests a start has been made. So any support forthcoming from you?

I was out on Saturday with the Swindon crew and agree that responses on the doorstep were really positive. For example a middle aged Irishwoman in a street in Tysley who was previously a Lib Dem voter [she had switched to the Lib Dems after years of loyalty to Labour]at first expressed a suspicion and wariness towards supporting Respect candidate Salma. She had heard of Respect but indicated that she thought it was just a ‘Muslim’ thing… she seemed pleasantly surprised that slightly disheveled working class whites were knocking on doors in her street. In less than three minutes of discussion it was like a light had been switched on… She intuitively knew that this was an authentic campaign by working class people to make things better. She related to Salma’s Candidacy in part because she saw local politics dominated by self seeking middle aged men. I explained that local Labour and Lib Dem politicians had accused Salma of ‘encouraging muslim women to disobey their men’. The Irishwoman smiled as if remembering some youthful rebellion of her own and she said clearly and confidently that Salma will get her vote.
I had the feeling walking away from this brief encounter that Respect had just given a demoralised working class woman a sense of hope.
http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2084#comments

 

[audiotech]

as far as the bosss are concerned it is .. for individual migrants yes it is to an extent ..

How is immigration 'uncontrolled' for the vast majority of employers possible (they're not all criminal, human traffickers ffs ), when you take into account the fact that certain criteria has to be met before you can employ someone legally?

 

[audiotech]

really? that is acknowledged by pretty well everyone .. each successive group of migrants is used to undercut the previous one

Don't be stupid.

All those Huguenots, the Irish fleeing famine, West Indian bus workers, Jewish tailoring in sweat shops, Ugandan Asians who set up businesses?

Todays Asian taxi-drivers doing worse than the Huguenots then?

 

[audiotech]

he he though i suspect many would tbh if it was proper training

Training in what?

Admit it, you haven't got a clue have you?

 

[tarannau]

Cheers MC5. Saves me the trouble of calling Durutti a clueless nugget of a muppet again.

The thing that annoys me is that, once again, he's spouting this unfailingly patronising line that sees new waves of immigrants as impotent patsies, rushing to kowtow to employers wishes and undercut others.

 

[durruti02]

How is immigration 'uncontrolled' for the vast majority of employers possible (they're not all criminal, human traffickers ffs ), when you take into account the fact that certain criteria has to be met before you can employ someone legally?

you telling me all the NHS cleaners etc etc employ legally?? the system is totally unregulated as you know ..

 

[audiotech]

you telling me all the NHS cleaners etc etc employ legally?? the system is totally unregulated as you know ..

The labour market is regulated, you know employment law and all that, not saying that some employers (the criminal kind) try to get away with breaking said law though.

Have you any evidence that NHS trusts are trafficking cleaners from overseas then?

Seriously, a Chief Executive and the board of an NHS trust wouldn't last five minutes if it was exposed that they were using illegal labour and using dubious employment methods. The unions, highly organised in the health sector, are unlikely to ignore such practices either.

 

[becky p]

The Rajeh Omar programme on channel 4 came up with an interesting poll result, 69% of people said that multiculuralism doesnt work. And 45% of BME people agreed with them.

 

[audiotech]

The Rajeh Omar programme on channel 4 came up with an interesting poll result, 69% of people said that multiculuralism doesnt work. And 45% of BME people agreed with them.

What is people's understanding of what 'multi-culturalism' is though?

The programme also stated that 82 percent of people thought there were no tensions and people got on with each other generally.

 

[durruti02]

The labour market is regulated, you know employment law and all that, not saying that some employers (the criminal kind) try to get away with breaking said law though.

Have you any evidence that NHS trusts are trafficking cleaners from overseas then?

Seriously, a Chief Executive and the board of an NHS trust wouldn't last five minutes if it was exposed that they were using illegal labour and using dubious employment methods. The unions, highly organised in the health sector, are unlikely to ignore such practices either.

MC my friend where have you been??? the trusts outsourced cleaning years ago .. everywhere you get outsourcing you get cheap labour and used immigrants .. and they unions can't even protect their pensions and have not stopped outsourcing

http://www.unison.org.uk/PositivelyPublic/news_view.asp?did=3947

cheap labour rag trade factories in east london generally get once a year 'raids' which pretty well everyone appears to know before hand

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7091924.stm

'illegal' immigrants work for police

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/illegal-immigrants-employed-by-home-office-478799.html

illegal immigrants work for immigration service lol

http://www.contractorcalculator.co.uk/ilegal_immigrants_can_be_contractors_276810_news.aspx

 

[durruti02]

Don't be stupid.

All those Huguenots, the Irish fleeing famine, West Indian bus workers, Jewish tailoring in sweat shops, Ugandan Asians who set up businesses?

Todays Asian taxi-drivers doing worse than the Huguenots then?

tut tut tut are you on a wind up my friend? LOL ;0 surely you have noticed the thousend times i have said it is NOT all immigration that is the issue but how immigration is USED .. yes of course the recent wave of russian oligarch and indian steel magnates has not contributed to 'the drive to the bottom' ..

of course what i decribe is generalisation LOL of course .. but it is a fact that business seeks always to lower costs and by using immigration they have been able to do so in the last 5 or so years .. and but you have still falied to describe how we have NOT got ( as john cruddas described) a race to the bottom .. you have still not explained how a country can have so many unskilled unemployed yet imports unskilled .. etc etc etc .. but i think you are just havig a laugh tbh

 

[durruti02]

Cheers MC5. Saves me the trouble of calling Durutti a clueless nugget of a muppet again.

The thing that annoys me is that, once again, he's spouting this unfailingly patronising line that sees new waves of immigrants as impotent patsies, rushing to kowtow to employers wishes and undercut others.

in your imagination mate .. you do not have to be a patsy to be used if it is also to your benefit as well as indeed it is in many situations ( wage differentials between eher and country of origin ) .. but many immigrants are both used and abused

btw i think you are afro caribean yes? so do you deny that the british afro caribean community has been a victim of this race to the bottom in wages? ( at least in london where i live )

 

[audiotech]

MC my friend where have you been??? the trusts outsourced cleaning years ago .. everywhere you get outsourcing you get cheap labour and used immigrants .. and they unions can't even protect their pensions and have not stopped outsourcing

http://www.unison.org.uk/PositivelyPublic/news_view.asp?did=3947

cheap labour rag trade factories in east london generally get once a year 'raids' which pretty well everyone appears to know before hand

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7091924.stm

'illegal' immigrants work for police

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/illegal-immigrants-employed-by-home-office-478799.html

illegal immigrants work for immigration service lol

http://www.contractorcalculator.co.uk/ilegal_immigrants_can_be_contractors_276810_news.aspx

The UNISON link talks about more cleaners on the wards and believing that this would tackle super bugs. There is nothing about immigrants in the piece.

Your other links focus on illegal immigrants being employed, somewhere other than NHS trusts.

As usual when challenged specifically on an issue you dodge and squirm.

 

[audiotech]

tut tut tut are you on a wind up my friend? LOL ;0 surely you have noticed the thousend times i have said it is NOT all immigration that is the issue but how immigration is USED .. yes of course the recent wave of russian oligarch and indian steel magnates has not contributed to 'the drive to the bottom' ..

of course what i decribe is generalisation LOL of course .. but it is a fact that business seeks always to lower costs and by using immigration they have been able to do so in the last 5 or so years .. and but you have still falied to describe how we have NOT got ( as john cruddas described) a race to the bottom .. you have still not explained how a country can have so many unskilled unemployed yet imports unskilled .. etc etc etc .. but i think you are just havig a laugh tbh

Today's news gives a different picture to the one you paint.

Given the number coming into the country, the problems have been very few in terms of criminality, increases in crime or community tensions.

Most are coming here to earn money, most are professionals with qualifications, and they work then go home.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/apr/16/immigrationpolicy.immigration

 

[audiotech]

in your imagination mate .. you do not have to be a patsy to be used if it is also to your benefit as well as indeed it is in many situations ( wage differentials between eher and country of origin ) .. but many immigrants are both used and abused

btw i think you are afro caribean yes? so do you deny that the british afro caribean community has been a victim of this race to the bottom in wages? ( at least in london where i live )

British Afro-Carribean? Yeah, my names Sir Trevor McDonald don't you know.

I'm from Irish immigrant stock and I'm no fucking victim. Nor am I as thick as you seem to be.

 

[tarannau]

in your imagination mate .. you do not have to be a patsy to be used if it is also to your benefit as well as indeed it is in many situations ( wage differentials between eher and country of origin ) .. but many immigrants are both used and abused

btw i think you are afro caribean yes? so do you deny that the british afro caribean community has been a victim of this race to the bottom in wages? ( at least in london where i live )

And mny more wouldn't consider themselves 'used and abused' Go easy on the patronising language and gross oversimplications.

The reasons for the Afro-Caribbean community (whatever that really is) struggling in the job market are far more complex and widespread than an ideal that future immigrants are pushing their wages down. It's nonsense to even suggest this as one of the leading causes if I'm honest - the community's problems were well established before these future waves of immigration, not least because of poor eucational treatement and institutionalised racism. It's not as though the new wave of East European plumbers, decorators and child care workers have taken roles Black youths have traditionally flocked to.

 

[d.a.s.h]

Today's news gives a different picture to the one you paint.

Re. the link to that Guardian article, spotted this sentence:

The report finds that, despite newspaper headlines linking new migrants to crime, offending rates among mainly Polish, Romanian and Bulgarian communities are in line with the rate of offending in the general population.

Not really surprising though, seeing as those particular countries appear to have serious crime levels (eg homicide rates) not hugely different from Britain. Without taking a broader view encompassing all the major nationalities who've moved here in recent years, it's possible just to cherry-pick the most favourable examples and say "look, no problem".

 

[audiotech]

Re. the link to that Guardian article, spotted this sentence:



Not really surprising though, seeing as those particular countries appear to have serious crime levels (eg homicide rates) not hugely different from Britain. Without taking a broader view encompassing all the major nationalities who've moved here in recent years, it's possible just to cherry-pick the most favourable examples and say "look, no problem".

Yeah, but people are saying that specifically crime is rising because of this influx.

As a source to the report points out:

Any rise has been broadly proportionate to the number of people from those communities coming into this country. People are saying crime is rising because of this influx. Given 1 million people have come in, that doesn't make sense as crime is significantly down."

 

[dennisr]

And mny more wouldn't consider themselves 'used and abused' Go easy on the patronising language and gross oversimplications.

The reasons for the Afro-Caribbean community (whatever that really is) struggling in the job market are far more complex and widespread than an ideal that future immigrants are pushing their wages down. It's nonsense to even suggest this as one of the leading causes if I'm honest - the community's problems were well established before these future waves of immigration, not least because of poor eucational treatement and institutionalised racism. It's not as though the new wave of East European plumbers, decorators and child care workers have taken roles Black youths have traditionally flocked to.

and, to extend that well-worded post - most of the same points made by tarannau about a specific section of the UK working class can be applied to the rest of the UKs working class community/ies.

(something I am pretty sure he would also point out)

 

[d.a.s.h]

Yeah, but people are saying that specifically crime is rising because of this influx.

Yes, it's a bit of a red herring. East Europeans have comprised around a third of people coming to Britain in recent years, which is probably lower than many might guess, given the running of endless Polish plumber/swan-eater stories in the press.

Almost exactly a year before, the Telegraph had this story, again based on information released by the police, stating that one in five murders in the year up to last April were committed by foreign nationals:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/13/ncrime113.xml

Scotland Yard said half of the organised crime gangs in London were "ethnic" - bound by a common language or homeland. The most common nationalities for foreign killers were Pakistani, Indian and Jamaican.

So it's possible to find both 'good migrant' and 'bad migrant' stories depending on who you're looking at and what you're looking at them for.

 

[durruti02]

British Afro-Carribean? Yeah, my names Sir Trevor McDonald don't you know.

I'm from Irish immigrant stock and I'm no fucking victim. Nor am I as thick as you seem to be.

er that was for tarannau ..

 

[audiotech]

er that was for tarannau ..

Racist!.

 

[durruti02]

And mny more wouldn't consider themselves 'used and abused' Go easy on the patronising language and gross oversimplications.

The reasons for the Afro-Caribbean community (whatever that really is) struggling in the job market are far more complex and widespread than an ideal that future immigrants are pushing their wages down. It's nonsense to even suggest this as one of the leading causes if I'm honest - the community's problems were well established before these future waves of immigration, not least because of poor eucational treatement and institutionalised racism. It's not as though the new wave of East European plumbers, decorators and child care workers have taken roles Black youths have traditionally flocked to.

tarannau .. ok lets be clear .. never did i say ALL immigrants are used and abused ... NEVER did i say that immigration is the ONLY reason for afro caibean problems in the job market .. never have i said ALL immigrnats are used and abused and i have clearly NOT said that there are straight linear 'he took her job' etc etc .. we clear on that?? so you can stop patronising me? yes??

BUT to deny

1) that sucessive groups of migrants ( that does NOT mean 100% of ALL migrants) are used to undercut OR to do what previous groups NO longer wish to do

2) that this process has significantly (NOT 100%, NOT the sole factor) affected the british afro caribean community ( yes whatever that is)

is plain daft

BUT it is also clear that without being current A8 and other immigration the situation of unemployed youth in this country would be addressed .. not neccessarly in ways we would agree with but ..

are you aware of , and what do you think of, that diane abbot protested to her local NHS hospital Homerton in Hackney, for employing phillipinos and finns when local BME youth were unemployed, many of whose grandparents were recruited to work in the NHS when we had full employment?

 

[durruti02]

Racist!.

yes Mr Donut

 

[bluestreak]

According to the Evading today, crime in london has fallen 6% since last year, including homicides.

 

[audiotech]

yes Mr Donut

Cakeist!

 

[durruti02]

and, to extend that well-worded post - most of the same points made by tarannau about a specific section of the UK working class can be applied to the rest of the UKs working class community/ies.

(something I am pretty sure he would also point out)

dennis though, no one argues with that .. no one disagrees things are complex .. no one disagrees that immigration is NOT teh only factor .. BUT it is the piece of the jig saw that needs sorting .. the SP accept this .. but keeps quiet about it .. and you always seem to come down against talking about immigration

 

[tarannau]

Why the bloody hell, if immigration is a minor factor in a whole series, is it the only 'piece of the jigsaw' that we need to focus on. Or more precisely why is it the thing you continually focus on.

Do you realise how obsessed, downright unbalanced and frankly worrying that makes you appear.

Nobody is stopping anyone talking about immigration. We're saying that you need to get a sense of perspective...

 

[durruti02]

Why the bloody hell, if immigration is a minor factor in a whole series, is it the only 'piece of the jigsaw' that we need to focus on. Or more precisely why is it the thing you continually focus on.

Do you realise how obsessed, downright unbalanced and frankly worrying that makes you appear.

Nobody is stopping anyone talking about immigration. We're saying that you need to get a sense of perspective...

finally .. becuase it is the one thing that the left ignore or deny ( though far fewer do now) .. and everyone else talks about it .. the bosses use it .. the state uses it .. the far right use it .. the left get confused .. it is one of issues of the moment .. how it is used as much as what it does

it is not possible to talk about so much .. wages , lack of investment in training, youth unemployment, cheap food, housing etc etc etc without mentionning immigration .. yet this is what the left try ( and fail in the public's eyes) to do