Immigration "small benefit" to UK
- Thread starter Dhimmi
- Start date
Yeah everybody needs to get a perspective it is only just part of the problem of increasing inequality across the world.
Now some like you tarranau think its very limited or that it may have a net positive effect!!!! Others like me and durruti etc point out that the consequences for poorer people and nations are often quite severe.
And yeah i guess both of us sound obsessed....but does that mean we are wrong about the subject...I dont think so....mind you durruti is still far too liberal for my liking....
dennisr
the acceptable face
finally.. becuase it is the one thing that the left ignore or deny ( though far fewer do now) .. and everyone else talks about it .. the bosses use it .. the state uses it .. the far right use it .. the left get confused .. it is one of issues of the moment .. how it is used as much as what it does
it is not possible to talk about so much .. wages , lack of investment in training, youth unemployment, cheap food, housing etc etc etc without mentionning immigration .. yet this is what the left try ( and fail in the public's eyes) to do
do you sign in under another name as well - as poster thingwhatsit?
we, as in the SP, don,t hide from owt - it is dealt with as and when it is raised - as are all the other questions raised. Where have the SP avoided the question? Show me? - show me where any public pronouncment has contradicted our collective and mutually agreed opinion?
I raised the idea of the 'race to the bottom' that we use to explain in simple terms the reality behind competition for jobs - you then re-use that term out of context in this thread.
The SP have fought and won serious battles - the 'race to the bottom' was first used in ireland where the SP - far from avoiding the issue put it on the front cover of every newspaper and tv broadcast in the country in the process of exposing use of cheap labour and the secret dealing of corrupt hypocritical politicians. That is not hiding from 'the issues' mate - its just more effective than repeating the same crap day in day out on a bulletin board. Our organisation united working people - irish and immigrant in the face of the previous raising of a popular anti-immigrant mood being used by politicians to hide their own failings and dirty deals.
We don't see the point in reinforcing the media obsession with the issue - but that is very different from 'hiding from the issue'. When you have raised it I have argued my points on the subject - you could not disagree with them- I cannot see the point of repeating them ad infinitum whenever you re-raise the same question for the nth time as though everything I had said was in a vacum when i said it. And thats the bone of contention most folk have with you - you ignore the points made and simply repeat the same stuff ad infinitum. Attention seeker
This is your real problem: its trying to tar the entire 'left' with your limited and understandably unenlightening experience of a certain type of left while a member of the SWP. So you are disollusioned with left politics - it does not give you the excuse to tar me with the same brush
audiotech
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Miserable git.
do you sign in under another name as well - as poster thingwhatsit?
we, as in the SP, don,t hide from owt - it is dealt with as and when it is raised - as are all the other questions raised. Where have the SP avoided the question? Show me? - show me where any public pronouncment has contradicted our collective and mutually agreed opinion?
I raised the idea of the 'race to the bottom' that we use to explain in simple terms the reality behind competition for jobs - you then re-use that term out of context in this thread.
The SP have fought and won serious battles - the 'race to the bottom' was first used in ireland where the SP - far from avoiding the issue put it on the front cover of every newspaper and tv broadcast in the country in the process of exposing use of cheap labour and the secret dealing of corrupt hypocritical politicians. That is not hiding from 'the issues' mate - its just more effective than repeating the same crap day in day out on a bulletin board. Our organisation united working people - irish and immigrant in the face of the previous raising of a popular anti-immigrant mood being used by politicians to hide their own failings and dirty deals.
We don't see the point in reinforcing the media obsession with the issue - but that is very different from 'hiding from the issue'. When you have raised it I have argued my points on the subject - you could not disagree with them- I cannot see the point of repeating them ad infinitum whenever you re-raise the same question for the nth time as though everything I had said was in a vacum when i said it. And thats the bone of contention most folk have with you - you ignore the points made and simply repeat the same stuff ad infinitum. Attention seeker
This is your real problem: its trying to tar the entire 'left' with your limited and understandably unenlightening experience of a certain type of left while a member of the SWP. So you are disollusioned with left politics - it does not give you the excuse to tar me with the same brush
dennis you are taking this way to personally mate
people use broad strokes on urban and generally in politics .. i accept that i use the term the left fairly broadly ( but often use the term swp liberal left to be clearer) and accept that the SP are a differrent class ( literally) than the SWP and the rest .. but there are also fundamental political similarities too .. methods of organisation / party v class issues / refusal to highlight how immigration is being used etc ( and i am sure you know i work with the SP much better than the swp
) but when i read your post i said 'dennis .. that is exactly my point .. you / the SP do mention immigration in ireland but not here .. why? yes you and i pretty well agree on the fundamentals .. yet you still do not seem to accept that it is such a key ideological issue it needs to be confronted head on .. (certainly more than the war in sri lanka
)the race to the bottom needs to be highlighted and yes the SP is involved in the day to day on this BUT we have to talk about immigration up front otherwise much of what we say makes no sense .. it really is the elephant in the room people do not want to talk about
and as i repeat over and over the BNP ARE busy talking about immigration - hyopcitically and racistly - you can not confront their propaganda without highlighting what the process really is ..
and yes the one SP article i have seen was spot on .. but it needs to be front page .. it needs to be a national campaign to deracialise the issue to bring it back into attacking the bosses .. as i say to tarannau .. it is the piece of the jigsaw whose absence makes the left appear ridiculous
Spion
I hear ya
Here we have Durruti's capitulation to the bosses press and its politicians' hysteria summed up nicely. Don't talk about years of union-bashing, casualisation, shit minimum wage, piss poor investment in housing and training, imposition of 'flexible' working. No, immigration is the thing we have to mention.
Here we have Durruti's capitulation to the bosses press and its politicians' hysteria summed up nicely. Don't talk about years of union-bashing, casualisation, shit minimum wage, piss poor investment in housing and training, imposition of 'flexible' working. No, immigration is the thing we have to mention.
Spion. I dont quite know why your making a post like that. Durruti is a Union rep a long term left activist who does not ignore any of the issues you mention.
He wants the Left to start to connect with what should be its natural constituency the kind of people he represents at work. To do that he knows they have to look at why they presently fail so badly.
I think you should welcome that if you really do want to see a left that has more impact in this country.
Spion
I hear ya
I think Durruti does good work and does everything a w/c activist should on the ground in terms of building his union and recruiting migrant workers. It's just the weird emphasis on immigration over these other issues when he writes on here that I don't get.
As an aside I think the bosses are getting ready to turn the tap off on immigration (recent Lords report, BBC surveys etc). You lot want to be careful you don't get drawn along with that tide when it happens
audiotech
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I think the emphasis is totally correct.
The point is that to bring about any of the political change we want means taking a decidedly class and internationalist position. D understands that.
Immigration is key to this. The orthodox lefts position on immigration shows that it has swallowed liberal lies.
audiotech
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Here we have Durruti's capitulation to the bosses press and its politicians' hysteria summed up nicely. Don't talk about years of union-bashing, casualisation, shit minimum wage, piss poor investment in housing and training, imposition of 'flexible' working. No, immigration is the thing we have to mention.
spion!!!!!!!
please i talk and ACT on THOSE issues ALL the time!!! there is no debate on these issues !! please .. to repeat NO DEBATE!!! OK??? my very first thread was about how immigration is part of thatcherism .. i and we take neo liberalism as GIVEN .. i and we are AGAINST those things ..
but please read my posts to tarranau again .. we agree on everything else that is bad .. the issue and my arguement is simply immigration is the key material and idological issue whose denial ( or quiet) by the left makes the rest of the anti capitalist arguement, in the eyes of w/c people, ridiculous
the issue is that the last few years of this neo liberal process could NOT have happenned WITHOUT cheap labour immigration .. and if you deny this explain how otherwise the bosses would have worked the last few years of????
tell me how can YOU talk of cheap food, low wages, housing issues, attacks on the unions, cowboy cleaning firms etc etc etc WITHOUT mentionning immigration?
ok i did not see this post before replying to the one above
.. but no it is NOT wierd .. it is teh missing part of the jigsaw .. see my reply to post above .. and right so please explain how they can cut off immigration and why would they want to? .. that makes no sense at all .. they may talk (and already do .. browns bullshit british jobs for british people) and pretend but not in reality ..
though they do have an option that treelover talks of all the time and that is to force ( not train up and give good wages to but simply force) the 3 million unemployed and incapacity claimants into shitty jobs ..
p.s. and to say this makes me think you still do not really understand the current importance of immigrant labour in terms of lowering wages, filling jobs that should be made better, allowing the state to not train workers, allowing the state to not tax the rich, undecutting unions, the breaking down of communities by encouraging movement ( 'on your bike' ) etc AND the old Marxian issue of fighting amongst ourselves AND using immigration to control and discipline workers etc etc etc
audiotech
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i do lean on lots of trees and squat down and admire the sunset on occasion
You shit in the woods - very good.
Spion
I hear ya
By having defeated the unions, you klutz!
Your emphasis on immigration as a prime cause is deeply wrong, and dangerous
audiotech
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Food is not cheap?
Low wages have alway's existed?
Cowboy cleaning firms? Regulate them.
As for 'attacks on the Unions'? The below, from a couple of days ago, suggests there are many who could be recruited to unions just now, instead of being manipulated by their employers.
A call for controls on immigration affects workers. Joining the chorus of immigration control only assists the absurd position outlined above.
Speaking of absurd positions,
how would durruti's stand on 'local jobs for local people' fit in here?Have you ever seen a film called Matewan..Its a great film, you should watch it.
A lot has changed since those days but a lot has stayed the same. Shit bosses/owners will still use immigrants to divide workers and push down wages. This has a negative effect on workers in the UK and US and especially in poorer countries.
You can and should be both anti economic migration and see common struggles with migrant workers as part of the way forward..
Problem is with the Left many of them have fallen for the lie that being anti economic migration is the same as being anti immigrant ( which underlines how shallow and misguided many of them are)
Hitler was pro immigration....
audiotech
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If I had any that is.
The demand 'local jobs for local people' in this instance doesn't really address the campaigners immediate fears, of labour shortages and the likelihood of closure as a result. The migrants workers themselves will lose jobs and any local people wishing to work in this sector will also see a disappearance of said work.
Perhaps you think " No Jobs for Local People" is what we should all be campaigning for. Along with support for taking all the skilled workers from poorer nations.... Supporting Free market policies on migration is crap MC. I think even you must realise that by now...
Do you not think that people in poorer countries need doctors and teachers?
Survival of the fittest eh.....
audiotech
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I think you'll find it's the survival of Indian and Chinese restaurants we're talking about here.
it is the same coin but differrent sides mate! defeating the unions ( which was a process not just the battle of orgreve) has been a long term process of which USING migrant labour is CURRENTLY key ..
why do you deny what is SO fucking obvious???? CCT PFI outsourcing etc etc etc the neo liberal project in 2008 DEPENDS on migrant labour .. to ignore this is just plain ridiculous and embaressing and think about it maybe spion maybe illustrates everything about why the left have become SO fucking marginalised???
and you know what .. i do NOT emphasise immigration .. ( jesus how many fucking times do i have to repeat this shit??? ) i emphasise that the left are ignoring this key part of the jigsaw .. ffs
do you REALLY not understand the differrence???? .. NOT immigration but the failure of the left to get a grip of it ?? yes??? and dangerous??? for gods sake the BNP are clearing up all around as we speak .. and you tell me it is DANGEROUS to argue the bosses USE immigration .. get real mate .. it is dangerous NOT to talk of this .. if the left do not get on top of this the fucking fascist scum will do .. you and the left are making anerror of potentially disasterous proportions .. and cos my neck will be quicly on teh line i need to do something about this
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