Fascists, Fascism and the Invasion.

[Dogsauce]

I was assuming fash wouldn’t be waving black and red flags when I saw that picture. That’s cultural appropriation, cunts.

 

[likesfish]

If you have Russia as a neighbour Nazism is probably attractive.
It pisses russia off.
Stalin's atrocities were similar to Adolfs and the the Russians hung about a lot longer.
The myth that your local SS units fought for your nation rather han either conscripted or thugs is attractive and fucks off russia.
Nazi icons look "cool" and piss off russia.

Eastbourne TA platoon was seriously into Nazi shit and operated a colour bar for years but nobody noticed because Eastbourne ethnic make up was white plus a few Drs and takeaway workers and were mocked when they let the son of the local takeaway join..
Purify of the white race vs discount curry curry won.

 

[The39thStep]

I was assuming fash wouldn’t be waving black and red flags when I saw that picture. That’s cultural appropriation, cunts.

Same colours as Bandera’s UPA, Ukrainian Insurgent Army ( some of those in the photo are also wearing Bandera T shirts).

 

[keybored]

Putin ought to invade Portugal next, looks like many of the nazis he's looking for are there.

 

[The39thStep]

Putin ought to invade Portugal next, looks like many of the nazis he's looking for are there.

There's a few like this one but not enough for a battalion

 

[nogojones]

Same colours as Bandera’s UPA, Ukrainian Insurgent Army ( some of those in the photo are also wearing Bandera T shirts).

This.

It's funny how the fight against colonial oppressors often turns out extreme nationalists. It's not unique to Ukraine. Vinayak Savarkar is another good example.

 

[Dogsauce]

What Russia is fighting for, in the words of someone from Wagner PMC.

Spoilered due to racism, homophobia, misogyny etc. You have been warned!

Second tweet has the subtitles, couldn’t separate them when posting the link.

Spoiler: But who are the real Nazis?

 

[Dystopiary]

Here's a thread on neo-nazis and far-right extremists fighting in Ukraine:

Thread by @LtTimMcMillan on Thread Reader App

 

[The39thStep]

Here's a thread on neo-nazis and far-right extremists fighting in Ukraine:

Thread by @LtTimMcMillan on Thread Reader App

Some useful info in that but some appalling denialism about the far right in Ukraine. There's a bit more about the two groups, Russian Imperial Legion and Rusich, here Russian Neo-Nazis Participate in ‘Denazifying’ Ukraine – Der Spiegel - The Moscow Times

and here

Radical Russian Imperial Movement Expanding Global Outreach

Russian Imperial Movement, based in St. Petersburg, is increasingly expanding its outreach beyond Russia through the establishment of transnational networks with likeminded neo-Nazis and white supremacist groups, experts warn

www.voanews.com

 

[The39thStep]

Believe it or not this appalling semi juvenile drivel was actually in the Financial Times being passed off as analysis.

Kim Scheppe: So this UPA group, that is the kind of paramilitary associated with this organisation of Ukrainian nationalists, they carry out essentially the Holocaust in Ukraine. They massacre lots of Poles and they’re, of course, willing to fight Russians as well. Now, remember, this is when Ukraine is still part of the Soviet Union. So this is a disloyal force within. So the Bandera defenders who come along now say, well look, we’re just in favour of Ukrainian independence and Bandera, our guy, was not involved in these massacres. And so there are these two different accounts of what Bandera’s about. Also, there’s something else that’s kind of funny that happens. I mean, it’s not funny, really, but it’s peculiar funny. At the end of the second world war, this organisation of Ukrainian nationalists, you know, after the Battle of Stalingrad, begins to realise they’re not going to win and they’re gonna have to somehow come to grips with being part of the Soviet Union again. So they start flipping their narrative and saying, oh, we’ve always loved Russians. This is really great. We’ve never actually said anything negative about Russians. And they create this fake document called The Book of Facts, in which they create a series of like alternative reality documents backdated to make it look like this organisation of Ukrainian nationalists had never been disloyal to the Soviet Union. And that book then emerges at the end of the war, particularly in the diaspora community, as evidence that Bandera was never associated with these massacres of Jews and Poles and others. And so that’s the version that the current group of Ukrainian nationalists wants to forward. And they resist the thought that this was a faked book of documents. So the legacy of Bandera is contested, you know, but what the Russians are now reacting to is the fact that the Ukrainian government has made Banderas birthday a holiday, the fact that actually “Slava Ukraini” the slogan that you hear, was the Bandera slogan. That some of the flags and the symbols and the symbols of Ukrainian nationalism date from the Bandera group and the Bandera era.

 

[Dystopiary]

Some useful info in that but some appalling denialism about the far right in Ukraine. There's a bit more about the two groups, Russian Imperial Legion and Rusich, here Russian Neo-Nazis Participate in ‘Denazifying’ Ukraine – Der Spiegel - The Moscow Times

and here

Radical Russian Imperial Movement Expanding Global Outreach

Russian Imperial Movement, based in St. Petersburg, is increasingly expanding its outreach beyond Russia through the establishment of transnational networks with likeminded neo-Nazis and white supremacist groups, experts warn

www.voanews.com

Thanks. Think there's still a lot to plough through. I definitely don't want to apologise for any far-right or neo-nazi. There are definitely pro-Putin and fake anti-imperialists alike who have a bad agenda with saying Ukrainians are nazis, but fuck all nazis of any flavour.

 

[nogojones]

"Kim Scheppe: So this UPA group, that is the kind of paramilitary associated with this organisation of Ukrainian nationalists, they carry out essentially the Holocaust in Ukraine. They massacre lots of Poles and they’re, of course, willing to fight Russians as well. Now, remember, this is when Ukraine is still part of the Soviet Union. So this is a disloyal force within. So the Bandera defenders who come along now say, well look, we’re just in favour of Ukrainian independence and Bandera, our guy, was not involved in these massacres. And so there are these two different accounts of what Bandera’s about. Also, there’s something else that’s kind of funny that happens. I mean, it’s not funny, really, but it’s peculiar funny. At the end of the second world war, this organisation of Ukrainian nationalists, you know, after the Battle of Stalingrad, begins to realise they’re not going to win and they’re gonna have to somehow come to grips with being part of the Soviet Union again. So they start flipping their narrative and saying, oh, we’ve always loved Russians. This is really great. We’ve never actually said anything negative about Russians. And they create this fake document called The Book of Facts, in which they create a series of like alternative reality documents backdated to make it look like this organisation of Ukrainian nationalists had never been disloyal to the Soviet Union. And that book then emerges at the end of the war, particularly in the diaspora community, as evidence that Bandera was never associated with these massacres of Jews and Poles and others. And so that’s the version that the current group of Ukrainian nationalists wants to forward. And they resist the thought that this was a faked book of documents. So the legacy of Bandera is contested, you know, but what the Russians are now reacting to is the fact that the Ukrainian government has made Banderas birthday a holiday, the fact that actually “Slava Ukraini” the slogan that you hear, was the Bandera slogan. That some of the flags and the symbols and the symbols of Ukrainian nationalism date from the Bandera group and the Bandera era."

That's really a quote from the FT?

 

[Dystopiary]

Believe it or not this appalling semi juvenile drivel was actually in the Financial Times being passed off as analysis.

"Slava Ukraini" goes back to before Bandera was even born!

 

[yield]

That's really a quote from the FT?

Ukraine’s nationalists and the Azov battalion

Why has Russia repeatedly claimed to be fighting neo-Nazis?

www.ft.com

Ukraine’s nationalists and the Azov battalion
FT. May 19 2022

It's an audio transcript.

 

[The39thStep]

"Kim Scheppe: So this UPA group, that is the kind of paramilitary associated with this organisation of Ukrainian nationalists, they carry out essentially the Holocaust in Ukraine. They massacre lots of Poles and they’re, of course, willing to fight Russians as well. Now, remember, this is when Ukraine is still part of the Soviet Union. So this is a disloyal force within. So the Bandera defenders who come along now say, well look, we’re just in favour of Ukrainian independence and Bandera, our guy, was not involved in these massacres. And so there are these two different accounts of what Bandera’s about. Also, there’s something else that’s kind of funny that happens. I mean, it’s not funny, really, but it’s peculiar funny. At the end of the second world war, this organisation of Ukrainian nationalists, you know, after the Battle of Stalingrad, begins to realise they’re not going to win and they’re gonna have to somehow come to grips with being part of the Soviet Union again. So they start flipping their narrative and saying, oh, we’ve always loved Russians. This is really great. We’ve never actually said anything negative about Russians. And they create this fake document called The Book of Facts, in which they create a series of like alternative reality documents backdated to make it look like this organisation of Ukrainian nationalists had never been disloyal to the Soviet Union. And that book then emerges at the end of the war, particularly in the diaspora community, as evidence that Bandera was never associated with these massacres of Jews and Poles and others. And so that’s the version that the current group of Ukrainian nationalists wants to forward. And they resist the thought that this was a faked book of documents. So the legacy of Bandera is contested, you know, but what the Russians are now reacting to is the fact that the Ukrainian government has made Banderas birthday a holiday, the fact that actually “Slava Ukraini” the slogan that you hear, was the Bandera slogan. That some of the flags and the symbols and the symbols of Ukrainian nationalism date from the Bandera group and the Bandera era."

That's really a quote from the FT?

Next week we interview Bill and Ted on American Foreign Policy and Venezuela

 

[DaveCinzano]

Next week we interview Bill and Ted on American Foreign Policy and Venezuela

Kim Scheppe: Everything is different, but the same. Things are more moderner than before - bigger, and yet smaller... It's computers... FT newsroom lunchtime Subbuteo club rules!

 

[dylanredefined]

I wonder how much less fascism there would be in Ukraine if the neighbouring Government weren’t massive authoritarians who kill dissidents and try to control their neighbours.

Oh and the whole commies killed millions of us.
Though then the Nazis killed millions of us. Might put the whole Nazis thing in perspective. Though then the commies came back and were complete dicks for 50 years.
TBH how anyone in Europe can see Nazis as a good idea outside of an sm outfit is beyond me.

 

[RD2003]

Facists, NGOs and Western intervention.

A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War

In 2014 Ukraine, great power gamesmanship, righteous anger at a corrupt status quo, and opportunistic far-right extremists toppled the government in the Maidan Revolution. Today’s crisis in Ukraine can’t be understood without understanding Maidan.

jacobinmag.com

 

[Dystopiary]

Oh this has got to be in bad faith now. What next, Aaron Maté ffs. Branko Marcetic has practically made misrepresenting Ukrainians his entire raison d'être, and has been pulled on it by Ukrainian leftists a number of times. As have Jacobin. It's hard to believe anyone to the left of Kier fucking Starmer with any interest in the subject doesn't know this.

 

[RD2003]

Oh this has got to be in bad faith now. What next, Aaron Maté ffs. Branko Marcetic has practically made misrepresenting Ukrainians his entire raison d'être, and has been pulled on it by Ukrainian leftists a number of times. As have Jacobin. It's hard to believe anyone to the left of Kier fucking Starmer with any interest in the subject doesn't know this.

I know nothing about the author and little about the magazine, having only encountered the odd article from it here and there online. I am not a great reader of the radical left press, which is generally rather boring.

However, the article is correct in terms of its chronologically based account of what actually did take place,. All events described are verifiable. And its outline of the nature of the participants is adequately nuanced.

Being to the left or right of Keir Starmer has absolutely nothing to do with it. Starmer's as gung-ho about the war as most of those in these threads, isn't he?

And being 'a leftist from Ukraine' doesn't mean you have the final say on anything, any more than does being a leftist in Britain mean that we are automatically correct in our view of what happens in Britain itself or the world in general. Although the Ukrainian leftists have probably (and understandably) succeeded in uniting in the face of invasion better than the left here would. That is, however, because there are far fewer of them even than we have here.

Amazing (or perhaps not) how people have let their emotions take over with regard to this war, when they don't usually do this about any of the many other, equally repugnant and horrific wars that constantly erupt around the world. It seems to be the only war currently going on (or perhaps ever) where an totally uncritical view of the 'acceptable' side is universally deemed compulsory.

 

[Humberto]

Amazing (or perhaps not) how people have let their emotions take over with regard to this war, when they don't usually do this about any of the many other, equally repugnant and horrific wars that constantly erupt around the world. It seems to be the only war currently going on where an totally uncritical view of the 'acceptable' side is universally deemed compulsory.

Is this nonsense though? By the way repugnent how?

 

[Dystopiary]

I know nothing about the author and little about the magazine, having only encountered the odd article from it here and there online. I am not a great reader of the radical left press, which is generally rather boring.

However, the article is correct in terms of its chronologically based account of what actually did take place. All events described are verifiable, and its outline of the the nature of the participants adequately nuanced.

Being to the left or right of Keir Starmer has absolutely nothing to do with it.

And being 'a leftist from Ukraine' doesn't mean you have the final say on anything, any more than does being a leftist in Britain mean that we are automatically correct in our view of what happens in Britain itself or the world in general. Although the Ukrainian leftists have probabaly succeeded in uniting in the face of inavasion better than the left here would. That is, however, because there are far fewer of them even than we have here.

Amazing (or perhaps not) how people have let their emotions take over with regard to this war, when they don't usually do this about any of the many other, equally repugnant and horrific wars that constantly erupt around the world. It seems to be the only war currently going on (or perhaps ever) where an totally uncritical view of the 'acceptable' side is universally deemed compulsory.

It's a bullshit article by a bullshit author with bullshit takes. If people were being arrogantly obnoxious and linking to dodgy authors on any subject people would say something. You've made it clear you won't listen to Ukrainians and how irrelevant you think their voices are on the war so I'm done.

 

[RD2003]

It's a bullshit article by a bullshit author with bullshit takes. If people were being arrogantly obnoxious and linking to dodgy authors on any subject people would say something. You've made it clear you won't listen to Ukrainians and how irrelevant you think their voices are on the war so I'm done.

OK, so you don't like him.

But, as I said, whoever he may be (I like almost everybody, have never heard of him) everything he described did take place.

Not my fault if you don't like reality.

How many people on here or in the real world, are 'listening to Ukrainians?' I suspect you mean uncritically swallowing the line of the Ukrainian government and the Ukrainian elites. After all, they are the only Ukrainians most of us hear from.

 

[The39thStep]

Interesting that those who gave it the 'Biletsky ( the far right founder) no longer has any role in the Azov regiment. Since 2015 and the regiment's subsequent induction into the Ukrainian military, Nazi types were driven out' failed to comment on this interesting comeback the other week.

According to Biletsky, this special operation was planned and conducted under the auspices of the Ministry of Defense. Biletsky says that his role was to organize a landing.

 

[RD2003]

Interesting that those who gave it the 'Biletsky ( the far right founder) no longer has any role in the Azov regiment. Since 2015 and the regiment's subsequent induction into the Ukrainian military, Nazi types were driven out' failed to comment on this interesting comeback the other week.

View attachment 324412

This is maybe the only war ever where western lefties fall over themselves to apologise/make excuses for out-and-out fascists.

It's something to do with that weird, perhaps unprecedented urge to throw all critical faculties out of the window and let emotion be your guide.

 

[nogojones]

This is maybe the only war ever where western lefties fall over themselves to apologise/make excuses for out-and-out fascists.

It's something to do with that weird, perhaps unprecedented urge to throw all critical faculties out of the window and let emotion be your guide.

I tend to look at it like I do about supporting Palestinian resistance to a brutal oppressor. There are elements of that resistance that are frankly very problematic and have more than there fair share of wankers. Hamas for example.

However, when discussing Palestine, if every post I make is about how awful Hamas is, then it becomes pretty obvious that I'm really about how much I think Israel is OK. This, very much seems to be where you are when it comes to Russian imperialism.

 

[RD2003]

I tend to look at it like I do about supporting Palestinian resistance to a brutal oppressor. There are elements of that resistance that are frankly very problematic and have more than there fair share of wankers. Hamas for example.

However, when discussing Palestine, if every post I make is about how awful Hamas is, then it becomes pretty obvious that I'm really about how much I think Israel is OK really. This, very much seems to be where you are when it comes to Russian imperialism.

It really doesn't.

Particularly when nearly every post I write doesn't even mention the fascist contribution to what led to this fiasco. I've hardly posted in this thread at all, for instance.

 

[The39thStep]

I tend to look at it like I do about supporting Palestinian resistance to a brutal oppressor. There are elements of that resistance that are frankly very problematic and have more than there fair share of wankers. Hamas for example.

However, when discussing Palestine, if every post I make is about how awful Hamas is, then it becomes pretty obvious that I'm really about how much I think Israel is OK. This, very much seems to be where you are when it comes to Russian imperialism.

I tend to look at it as if we had a thread on reactionary fundamentalist and nationalist groups in the Palestine/Israel war and there were posters who refused to recognise those elements in in Hamas. I wouldn't have any problems, as a person being against Israeli aggression, to point out that they do the Palestinian working class no favours what so ever.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Leftist ffs

 

[nogojones]

I tend to look at it as if we had a thread on reactionary fundamentalist and nationalist groups in the Palestine/Israel war and there were posters who refused to recognise those elements in in Hamas. I wouldn't have any problems, as a person being against Israeli aggression, to point out that they do the Palestinian working class no favours what so ever.

This is the thread for it. For fascists of both sides.

There is however quite a lot of drift from a couple of posters who's only real concern seems to be Azov and the Ukrainian far right, as though they are the predominant problem in Ukraine at the moment and their only contribution to the Ukrainian forms seems to be pointing out the Ukrainian fascist threat. Then using this to argue that shouldn't be armed, or should just stop fighting, because Russia will win in the end, so suck it up.

There maybe people who also underplay their influence, but that's possibly because they are focused on the slightly bigger problem that is currently happening.