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Fascists, Fascism and the Invasion.

I realise there's a big helping of "my enemy's enemy" going on here, and fair enough, but it does looks like some of the stuff on Azov here is coming pretty close to nazi apologism. Sure, there will be plenty of Azov people who are not fash, but that doesn't make is any less a nazi organisation than the Waffen SS was when they drafted all sorts of "volunteers". Fine that they're defending Mariuopol from invasion and mass murder but there's really no need for the soft soap.
 
From what I've read the Azov lot started off as a far right militia, some neo Nazis in it. Co-opted by the state, now under army control and army orders. Far right greatly diluted. Involved in war crimes in the Donbas, probably, back in 2014 or so. Not since then. Used as a convenient target by pro Putin people ever since, or anti NATO people.

Or Ukraine is awash with Nazis paid for by NATO and the USA.

There's quite a possibility I'm wrong, but not overly so. There would not seem to be reliable evidence that there are loads of Nazis in Ukraine, nor indeed that even Azov is dominated by them. What's left of them. In the absence of that evidence Azov is being used by Putin, STWC and others as little more than a slogan to justify the invasion or to justify inaction.

This war is not about Azov.
 
I realise there's a big helping of "my enemy's enemy" going on here, and fair enough, but it does looks like some of the stuff on Azov here is coming pretty close to nazi apologism. Sure, there will be plenty of Azov people who are not fash, but that doesn't make is any less a nazi organisation than the Waffen SS was when they drafted all sorts of "volunteers". Fine that they're defending Mariuopol from invasion and mass murder but there's really no need for the soft soap.

I'm sticking my hand up to feeling like I've had to look at myself a few times and wonder if I'm skating close to that a bit Serge Forward - even if only in my own head.

It's hard to unpick it all though, I have read and listened to a bunch of stuff, and most of the reasonably convincing and well argued articles/interviews say the prominence of the far right in Azov is massively overplayed and it has little to no real political significance now. But I get that's not the only view, and I think the problem is that one hand it's of course given as one of the base arguments for the invasion (and that's echoed by all the fools and murderous regime supporters/apologists on the 'left' here like Galloway) and then also (and connected) there's not really many 'neutral' commentators on it all, so it's pretty easy to find people saying whatever you want to find to back-up your position.

Anyway, might try and piece together some more thoughts on it at the weekend.
 
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I'm sticking my hand up to feeling like I've had to look at myself a few times and wonder if I'm skating close to that a bit Serge Forward - even if only in my own head.

It's hard to unpick it all though, I have read and listened to a bunch of stuff, and most of the reasonably convincing and well argued articles/interviews say the prominence of the far right in Azov is massively overplayed and it has little to no real political significance now. But I get that's not the only view, and I think the problem is that one hand it's of course given as one of the base arguments for the invasion (and that's echoed by all the fools and murderous regime supporters/apologists on the 'left' here like Galloway) and then also (and connected) there's not really many 'neutral' commentators on it all, so it's pretty easy to find people saying whatever you want to find to back-up your position.

Anyway, might try and piece together some more thoughts on it at the weekend.

If you haven't listened to it yet, I highly recommend the podcast posted by frogwoman over on the other thread.

I think half the problem is regular journalism; many journalists have been used to making generalisations for the past eight years, with no consequence because few readers were interested enough to look deeper, whereas now there is a broader interest and it's become clear that there is complexity and nuance that have previously been ignored.
 
If you haven't listened to it yet, I highly recommend the podcast posted by frogwoman over on the other thread.

I think half the problem is regular journalism; many journalists have been used to making generalisations for the past eight years, with no consequence because few readers were interested enough to look deeper, whereas now there is a broader interest and it's become clear that there is complexity and nuance that have previously been ignored.

Yeah for sure, been reading and listening to all the stuff frogwoman posts on this.
 
Ithere's not really many 'neutral' commentators on it all, so it's pretty easy to find people saying whatever you want to find to back-up your position.

a key point.

the video reports ive seen about azov dont look like a nonstroy manipulation of consciousness to me
is there a credible reason why a cash-strapped BBC Newsnight wanted to send journalists to fabricate a story about the Ukrainian far-right out of nothing ?
 
ska invita sorry but you need to listen to the podcast, that quote's massively taken out of context tbh. He's talking in terms of the idea that this justifies the invasion. If you listen to it Umland goes into quite a lot of depth on the history of the far right in Ukraine and groups like Svoboda, Right Sector etc too. His articles on the subject are also definitely worth a read too. He's definitely not saying this isn't a problem or anything to be worried about. I listened to the whole thing and thought the summary was massively misleading.

For what it's worth I don’t doubt that Azov have dodgy people in it, maybe its a majority. It seems clear however that many have joined not because of ideology but because they have developed a reputation around the fighting in Mariupol. The soldiers fighting at Mariupol include Jews and Crimean Tatars (a Muslim minority) who are the sort of people demonised by Ukraine's far right - including the pro Russian far right. Unlike Putin, they're largely not in a position to act out their beliefs right now, and the actions of the soldiers at Mariupol (not just Azov but marines etc) have caused a serious thorn in the side of the Russian army, tied them up and probably prevented some towns in the south from being captured by acting as a decoy. That's one of the main reasons Putin keeps going on about them. I'm not in any way saying that the far right origins etc should be ignored but also, things have changed quite a bit since 2014 and it's increasingly clear that things are much more complicated than they were back then because of the situation with the war.

I don’t know if anyone read this interview with Svyatoslav Palamar in Ha'aretz BTW. I don't agree with much of it but it's quite interesting to see what they say about themselves, he tries to compare the Ukrainian struggle to Israel lol which is...not imo the best analogy. Azov Battalion's second-in-command: 'Like in Israel, there is also terror against us. We are not Nazis'

Oh and haha please don't take my posts as being some sort of authority on the subject, I'm also pretty confused about it myself and I've read lots of things that are convincing and seem contradictory.
 
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ska invita sorry but you need to listen to the podcast, that quote's massively taken out of context tbh. He's talking in terms of the idea that this justifies the invasion. If you listen to it Umland goes into quite a lot of depth on the history of the far right in Ukraine and groups like Svoboda, Right Sector etc too. His articles on the subject are also definitely worth a read too. He's definitely not saying this isn't a problem or anything to be worried about.
:oldthumbsup: :oldthumbsup:
 
Yeah, on one hand I find myself thinking "this is why it's so important to have an open dialogue with Ukrainian antifascists so we can hear their perspectives and develop our understanding based on that", and on the other hand I suppose it would be entirely reasonable for said Ukrainian antifascists to go "ffs why do Westerners keep on asking us the same questions about Azov over and over, do they not know there's a war on?"
 
The Ukraine without Hype podcast is also well worth listening to on this, especially some of their earlier pre war stuff.
 
go "ffs why do Westerners keep on asking us the same questions about Azov over and over, do they not know there's a war on?"
The fact there's a war on is precisely what raises the stakes of the far right presence in Ukraine... They are being armed, the opportunity to recruit and create binds is high, and the aftermath (and earlier) will make for a perfect breeding ground etc.
 
Colborne's very readable book on Azov is now out on Kindle btw

Here's what he had to say in March

I’ve said before that the Azov movement, or just that shorthand ‘Azov,’ is one of the most widely discussed yet poorly understood far-right movements in the world. I’d describe the movement like this: it’s a multi-pronged, heterogeneous far-right social movement that grew out of its namesake military unit, the Azov Regiment, and exert at least some influence on Ukrainian politics and society despite its small numbers (e.g., at most 20,000 members estimated at some points in the past). It continues, even during the current invasion, to evolve and grow and adapt, and is probably one of the most PR-savvy far-right movements I’ve ever seen. But it’s not some invincible far-right force — it’s had its struggles, its ups and downs, and isn’t about to take over Ukraine in some flight of Russian propaganda fancy or become some mass Fascist movement of hundreds of thousands like the 1930s. Discourse on Azov tends to be black-and-white — it’s either nothing to be concerned about and uninfluential, or it’s literally the NSDAP redux — but there’s all sorts of shades of grey in there that get painted over. And studying it helps us, I’d argue, understand other far-right movements around the world
 
The fact there's a war on is precisely what raises the stakes of the far right presence in Ukraine... They are being armed, the opportunity to recruit and create binds is high, and the aftermath (and earlier) will make for a perfect breeding ground etc.
Yeah, I mean if you look at frogwoman's post earlier then that is a real nightmare scenario in some ways:
For what it's worth I don’t doubt that Azov have dodgy people in it, maybe its a majority. It seems clear however that many have joined not because of ideology but because they have developed a reputation around the fighting in Mariupol.
Like, a far-right group being able to recruit large numbers of people because they're seen as being identified with an important popular/legitimate struggle is a huge problem. But at the same time it seems like it's still not as big and pressing a problem as the invasion, it doesn't seem like Azov are currently doing Bucha-style atrocities, and so I can understand people getting frustrated at the focus on them... so round and round it goes, dunno what the answer is.
 
Finally listened to the podcast with Andreas Umland, posted by frogwoman.
So the Azov movement came out of the Azov batallion (which was formed out of the 2014 invasion).
The Azov batallion had far right origins, but now has all different people in it whose main concern is defending against the Russian invasion, but does still have an unknown quantity of far right, including neo-nazis.
The Azov movement, not the batallion, is far right.

Think that's right.
 
Finally listened to the podcast with Andreas Umland, posted by frogwoman.
So the Azov movement came out of the Azov batallion (which was formed out of the 2014 invasion).
The Azov batallion had far right origins, but now has all different people in it whose main concern is defending against the Russian invasion, but does still have an unknown quantity of far right, including neo-nazis.
The Azov movement, not the batallion, is far right.

Think that's right.
As soon as you think you are safe in the water the complexity and nuance issue starts to circle .



He was originally in far right ( I think I can use that language here) Right Sector militia and famous for his ‘nationalist ‘ poetry which was mainly renowned for equating Russians and pro Russian citizens with being animals. Prob just a bad apple .
 
As soon as you think you are safe in the water the complexity and nuance issue starts to circle .



He was originally in far right ( I think I can use that language here) Right Sector militia and famous for his ‘nationalist ‘ poetry which was mainly renowned for equating Russians and pro Russian citizens with being animals. Prob just a bad apple .


Seems Kyiv post has deleted that article now... I couldn't find anything on him beyond the highly dodgy article (have broken link) below.


I'm not particularly inclined to give Azov the benefit of the doubt, I mean start by dropping the fucking Wolfsangel, but there's a lot of weird unsubstantiated shit floating about out there.
 
I went on a deep dive (why? fuck knows), story broadly checks out I think (if you're weird, search Сергій Ска льд on instagram etc - broken that too as it's probably not that widely used a search term)? But am not going any deeper than that. I think with all these things of course there are Ukrainian nazis dying out there. It's just where exactly does that get us? Did a Ukrainian nationalist who wrote some poetry die? Sure (I think). Was he influential? 1,600 instagram followers says probably not.
 
I went on a deep dive (why? fuck knows), story broadly checks out I think (if you're weird, search Сергій Ска льд on instagram etc - broken that too as it's probably not that widely used a search term)? But am not going any deeper than that. I think with all these things of course there are Ukrainian nazis dying out there. It's just where exactly does that get us? Did a Ukrainian nationalist who wrote some poetry die? Sure (I think). Was he influential? 1,600 instagram followers says probably not.

We are all nationalist these days. Totenkopf T-shirt with Meine Ehre heißt Treue ,slogan of the SS

1652524488329.png
 
I went on a deep dive (why? fuck knows), story broadly checks out I think (if you're weird, search Сергій Ска льд on instagram etc - broken that too as it's probably not that widely used a search term)? But am not going any deeper than that. I think with all these things of course there are Ukrainian nazis dying out there. It's just where exactly does that get us? Did a Ukrainian nationalist who wrote some poetry die? Sure (I think). Was he influential? 1,600 instagram followers says probably not.
Most poets that I know would sell their children for 1,600 followers
 
It's a long about Ukrainian far rights complicated, drifting alliances, corruption in political movements and some historical ties to pro Russian Oligarchy.
 
There was a 300 strong demonstration in Lisbon a couple of weeks ago against 'the fascist Putin regime' led by the Association of Ukrainians in Portugal. The leader of the association, Pavlo Sadokha, has just been outed as a former adviser to Yuriy Syrotiuk, a former deputy from the far-right Svoboda party. Sadokha ( centre below with more members of the Association of Ukrainians in Portugal holding three flags of the ultranationalist Right Sector ) was also a Right Sector supporter and organised delivery of aid to Azov and other militia.

1653122802440.png
 
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