Charlottesville aftermath discussion thread...

[Miss Caphat]

so to appease people who aren't outraged antifa should restrain themselves. makes no sense, chuck.

Not to appease anyone, just in order to not give the mouth-frothers any reason to say "I told you so" when the spotlight is just as much on them as it is the KKK / alt-right.

Choosing one way means gaining support of people who could have gone either way, and choosing the other way risks losing support of people who haven't yet made up their minds.

 

[bimble]

no. Honestly, fuck the people who "haven't yet made up their minds" which side they're on.

 

[Pickman's model]

sorry, but I think he / she's right this time.
everyone who isn't completely outraged is (at least partially) blaming this on the "violent leftists / antifa" and I don't mean a small obscure group of people, I mean probably 45% of the population here. (as in "they started it, were there to incite violence, are just as hateful as Nazis"...you get the point)

regardless of the fact that they have no clue what they're talking about, antifa really does need to tone it down for these upcoming rallies in order to not give this sentiment any more fodder. but, I also think they know this...hopefully.

from what you've said here 55% of people in the us are outraged while the other 45% blame this on antifa. assuming the 55% of people who are outraged are outraged at the fascists, the 45% who blame antifa shouldn't imvho be used as a reason not to do anything. as you say, they already blame antifa and i don't suppose they'd be appeased or change their minds if antifa do nothing.

 

[rekil]

Google trends doesn't lie.

 

[Miss Caphat]

from what you've said here 55% of people in the us are outraged while the other 45% blame this on antifa. assuming the 55% of people who are outraged are outraged at the fascists, the 45% who blame antifa shouldn't imvho be used as a reason not to do anything. as you say, they already blame antifa and i don't suppose they'd be appeased or change their minds if antifa do nothing.

I meant of the 55% who are outraged at the KKK / alt right. Just because antifa is technically fighting for the same side, doesn't mean they're just going to be embraced no matter what they do. There are plenty of people opposed to racism who have been convinced that BLM is a violent terrorist group

 

[Sasaferrato]

I wonder when they will start pulling down the monuments to Washington and Jefferson? Both were slave owners during their presidencies.

 

[bimble]

I wonder when they will start pulling down the monuments to Washington and Jefferson? Both were slave owners during their presidencies.

You are not alone in wondering thus

 

[Pickman's model]

I meant of the 55% who are outraged at the KKK / alt right. Just because antifa is technically fighting for the same side, doesn't mean they're just going to be embraced no matter what they do. There are plenty of people opposed to racism who have been convinced that BLM is a violent terrorist group

sorry, but I think he / she's right this time.
everyone who isn't completely outraged is (at least partially) blaming this on the "violent leftists / antifa" and I don't mean a small obscure group of people, I mean probably 45% of the population here. (as in "they started it, were there to incite violence, are just as hateful as Nazis"...you get the point)

please in future say what you mean and we should get along fine.

 

[8den]

I wonder when they will start pulling down the monuments to Washington and Jefferson? Both were slave owners during their presidencies.

Those two fought to create a union and not try to destroy America.

But yeah, fuck slave holders.

Also,



Yeah, we weren't going to say anything but Columbus day is pretty offensive as well.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

You know its bad, when the response of Robert E. Lee's great, great, grandson makes more sense than our current president.

Following Trump’s off the rails, impromptu press conference yesterday in which he again failed to condemn literal white supremacists and neo-Nazis at Saturday’s rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, the family of Robert E. Lee, in a surprising move, denounced the white nationalist groups who rallied to preserve the Civil War general’s statue.

“There’s no place for that,” Robert E. Lee V, the great-great-grandson of the Confederate hero, said in an interview with Newsweek. “There’s no place for that hate.” Along with Lee’s sister, Tracy Lee Crittenberger, the two issued a statement condemning the “hateful words and violent actions of white supremacists, the KKK or neo-Nazis.”

Here's the important bit:

The Confederate heir’s family even went so far as to endorse the relocation of further Confederate-era statues into museums.

“I think that is absolutely an option, to move it to a museum and put it in the proper historical context,” Lee said. “Times were very different then. We look at the institution of slavery, and it’s absolutely horrendous. Back then, times were just extremely different. We understand that it’s complicated in 2017, when you look back at that period of time… If you want to put statues of General Lee or other Confederate people in museums, that makes good sense.”

Robert E. Lee’s Family Just Gave An Unexpected Response To Trump’s Charlottesville Controversy

This is also further than some of the white people I know on Facebook were willing to go. I'm seriously disappointed in the number of people who have bent over backward trying to justify the alt-right and the violence that goes with them. Sometimes you really find out what side someone is on. Its tempting to decide to go back home and roll up the road behind me.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

I wonder when they will start pulling down the monuments to Washington and Jefferson? Both were slave owners during their presidencies.

Because the late 18th century was not the second half of the 19th; The question is 'Would Washington and Jefferson have supported slavery 60 or 70 years later in what was increasingly becoming recognisably the modern world?' One hopes and supposes not.

People are products of their times.

Guess which Marx brother said:
'Social progress may be measured precisely by the social position of the fair sex (plain ones included)'

Clue: it was the one who wrote to Engels a lot.

 

[bimble]

Slightly on a tangent but not completely:
Had a chat earlier to my ex who grew up in Ohio in the 70s, asked him if the confederate flag was a thing back then. He said that as a (white) kid people wearing T-shirts with the confederate flag was fairly common sight, signified something a lot like say a Jack Daniels logo, it kind of just meant you like country music and grits and are proud of some sort of rural southern culture.

Wikipedia says of the flag that it basically disappeared at the end of the civil war only to be revived in the 50s and 60s by people who wanted to express their opposition to the civil rights movement. And yet "In a national survey in 2015 across all races, 57% of Americans had the opinion that the Confederate flag represented Southern pride rather than racism. A similar poll in 2000 had a nearly identical result of 59%. However, poll results from only the South yielded a completely different result. 75% of Southern whites described the flag as a symbol of pride, while 75% of Southern blacks said the flag represented racism.'

From here it is really hard to understand how that flag (symbolising the losing side in the war to keep slavery) could ever be seen as something to feel proud of or neutral about but clearly this stuff (these flags and those 100 year old statues) matter again now in a way they didn't for a couple of generations.

 

[ddraig]

I meant of the 55% who are outraged at the KKK / alt right. Just because antifa is technically fighting for the same side, doesn't mean they're just going to be embraced no matter what they do. There are plenty of people opposed to racism who have been convinced that BLM is a violent terrorist group

technically fighting for the same side?? they are some of the only people fighting, more people need to actually fight rather than talk about it
why do those people think BLM is a violent terrorist group? because so many people say it and parrot it, it's not true tho is it, how many terrorist things have BLM done? how many people have they killed? where's the evidence?
those fucking liberals need to take a look at themselves and what they're swallowing as truth

 

[Sasaferrato]

Shows you what a bag of bollocks trying to revise history is. Statues should remain in place.

When people see a statue to Cecil Rhodes, but don't know who he was, it takes a few moments on a modern phone to find out. That way, his infamy never dies.

Statues can be be strange sometimes. In Glasgow there is a statue to Ewen Cameron, 17th Chief of the Clan Cameron (the clan chief is known as Cameron of Locheil ,or just 'Lochiel'., who stopped the Highlanders from sacking the city in 1745. He was known as the 'Gentle Lochiel'. Glasgow didn't rise for Charles, so Lochiel was their enemy, yet, the City had the grace to honour him for what he did for them.

I was at at a do at Achncarry castle, to celebrate Lochiel's 60th birthday. Also present was an English Lord (Up for the shooting.), who mentioned that he was the fourth of his title. Lochiel replied, deadpan, it is nice when the title carries on, I'm the 26th Lochiel myself.

 

[Pickman's model]

Shows you what a bag of bollocks trying to revise history is. Statues should remain in place.

When people see a statue to Cecil Rhodes, but don't know who he was, it takes a few moments on a modern phone to find out. That way, his infamy never dies.

Statues can be be strange sometimes. In Glasgow there is a statue to Ewen Cameron, 17th Chief of the Clan Cameron (the clan chief is known as Cameron of Locheil ,or just 'Lochiel'., who stopped the Highlanders from sacking the city in 1745. He was known as the 'Gentle Lochiel'. Glasgow didn't rise for Charles, so Lochiel was their enemy, yet, the City had the grace to honour him for what he did for them.

I was at at a do at Achncarry castle, to celebrate Lochiel's 60th birthday. Also present was an English Lord (Up for the shooting.), who mentioned that he was the fourth of his title. Lochiel replied, deadpan, it is nice when the title carries on, I'm the 26th Lochiel myself.

all lords should be up for the shooting

 

[Pickman's model]

When people see a statue to Cecil Rhodes, but don't know who he was, it takes a few moments on a modern phone to find out. That way, his infamy never dies.

rhodes should stay in no small part because the people who sup from his bequest need to be reminded what they are.

robert e lee did not leave a similar bequest or ask for the statue, nor was it erected by a grateful confederacy. there is no reason why it should remain where it is.

 

[Sasaferrato]

technically fighting for the same side?? they are some of the only people fighting, more people need to actually fight rather than talk about it
why do those people think BLM is a violent terrorist group? because so many people say it and parrot it, it's not true tho is it, how many terrorist things have BLM done? how many people have they killed? where's the evidence?
those fucking liberals need to take a look at themselves and what they're swallowing as truth

Is it not the 'fucking liberals' who want to tear down the statues?

 

[ddraig]

Is it not the 'fucking liberals' who want to tear down the statues?

no they're the ones saying both sides are as bad as each other and worrying about property damage and things should be done through the democratic system etc etc

 

[Sasaferrato]

rhodes should stay in no small part because the people who sup from his bequest need to be reminded what they are.

I was amused the other year, when a black Rhodes Scholar was demanding that Rhode's statue be removed. Bite, hand and feed sprang to mind. It'll take more than the scholarships to redeem Rhodes I think. I was quite surprised to find that a musician that I've been listening to for half a century was a Rhodes Scholar, Kriss Kristofferson.

 

[Sasaferrato]

no they're the ones saying both sides are as bad as each other and worrying about property damage and things should be done through the democratic system etc etc

OK, kind of hard to keep track of the factions.

 

[ddraig]

OK, kind of hard to keep track of the factions.

should nazis be allowed to march or attempt to be stopped in your opinion?

 

[Sasaferrato]

all lords should be up for the shooting

I doubt if the phrase means the same to both of you.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

technically fighting for the same side?? they are some of the only people fighting, more people need to actually fight rather than talk about it
why do those people think BLM is a violent terrorist group? because so many people say it and parrot it, it's not true tho is it, how many terrorist things have BLM done? how many people have they killed? where's the evidence?
those fucking liberals need to take a look at themselves and what they're swallowing as truth

Yep, spot on. tbh if a group isn't being portrayed as terrorists by certain parts of the media, they're probably not trying hard enough.

 

[Miss Caphat]

technically fighting for the same side?? they are some of the only people fighting, more people need to actually fight rather than talk about it
why do those people think BLM is a violent terrorist group? because so many people say it and parrot it, it's not true tho is it, how many terrorist things have BLM done? how many people have they killed? where's the evidence?
those fucking liberals need to take a look at themselves and what they're swallowing as truth

all true...but sometimes you have to be practical.
for a country so in love with guns, war heroes, the military, etc, any kind of violence that's politically motivated scares the absolute shit out of everyone and makes people want to dissociate from whichever group did it. Even if it's blocking a road or hitting a building with a twig. Even if it's one person in a group of 5000. Doesn't matter.

so that's one thing.

also "those fucking liberals need to take a look at themselves and what they're swallowing as truth" is also very true, however, this is all happening at once and unless you can magically change lifetimes of brainwashing, by this weekend, it's best to go with the support the left does have right now at this very moment, and the fact that people are finally starting to see the cracks in the facade

Wait, there are still Nazis? Wait, could the president actually be a racist? Wait, maybe what those crazy commies have been saying is right?

But the second you start doing stuff the mainstream can't understand or can't imagine doing themselves, or comes across as violent, you lose this momentum.

I don't want to go on and on about this. I know many people here will disagree with me. Just trying to explain how it actually is here.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

also "those fucking liberals need to take a look at themselves and what they're swallowing as truth" is also very true, however, this is all happening at once and unless you can magically change lifetimes of brainwashing, by this weekend, it's best to go with the support the left does have right now at this very moment, and the fact that people are finally starting to see the cracks in the facade

Allowing nazis to march isn't helping people to see the cracks in the facade, though. I'm all for reaching out, but when nazis are marching, the only thing that should be reaching out is a boot, and those confrontations, even if they lead to violence, surely those are the cracks in the facade.

As for those who haven't made up their minds yet, what the fuck is stopping you now? Make up your fucking mind. Again, not confronting racists doesn't force this issue.

 

[Sasaferrato]

should nazis be allowed to march or attempt to be stopped in your opinion?

Allowed. I don't think it is the function of the state to decide which political flavour is allowed to march. Of course, those who wish to disrupt the Nazis with a march of their own, should also be allowed to march.

From observation of the TV reports, the Nazis appear to be outnumbered many times. I should imagine that they will eventually give it up.

It would be interesting to see a breakdown of the 'pro' marchers. I would suspect that out and out fascists are outnumbered by those who see this as an attack on their heritage. It depends whether you see the statues as memorials of soldiers, who fought bravely for their cause (the cause was by no means solely about slave ownership, there were major taxation issues also), or whether they were out and out racists. You need to remember that the black population wasn't universally welcomed as equals in the North either.

I was going to say that it is absolutely juvenile, on both sides, to be so exercised over symbols. Then I remembered somewhere much closer to home...

 

[Sasaferrato]

all true...but sometimes you have to be practical.
for a country so in love with guns, war heroes, the military, etc, any kind of violence that's politically motivated scares the absolute shit out of everyone and makes people want to dissociate from whichever group did it. Even if it's blocking a road or hitting a building with a twig. Even if it's one person in a group of 5000. Doesn't matter.

so that's one thing.

also "those fucking liberals need to take a look at themselves and what they're swallowing as truth" is also very true, however, this is all happening at once and unless you can magically change lifetimes of brainwashing, by this weekend, it's best to go with the support the left does have right now at this very moment, and the fact that people are finally starting to see the cracks in the facade

Wait, there are still Nazis? Wait, could the president actually be a racist? Wait, maybe what those crazy commies have been saying is right?

But the second you start doing stuff the mainstream can't understand or can't imagine doing themselves, or comes across as violent, you lose this momentum.

I don't want to go on and on about this. I know many people here will disagree with me. Just trying to explain how it actually is here.

Pretty bloody awful at the moment I should imagine.

 

[Miss Caphat]

Allowing nazis to march isn't helping people to see the cracks in the facade, though. I'm all for reaching out, but when nazis are marching, the only thing that should be reaching out is a boot, and those confrontations, even if they lead to violence, surely those are the cracks in the facade.

As for those who haven't made up their minds yet, what the fuck is stopping you now? Make up your fucking mind. Again, not confronting racists doesn't force this issue.

as much as I think it's a slippery slope and I hate doxxing in general, the left has really done a great job this time around of taking good clear pictures & using them to get people outed/ fired etc. this is a seemingly more acceptable form of violence. let them dig their own holes.

 

[ddraig]

Allowed. I don't think it is the function of the state to decide which political flavour is allowed to march. Of course, those who wish to disrupt the Nazis with a march of their own, should also be allowed to march.

From observation of the TV reports, the Nazis appear to be outnumbered many times. I should imagine that they will eventually give it up.

It would be interesting to see a breakdown of the 'pro' marchers. I would suspect that out and out fascists are outnumbered by those who see this as an attack on their heritage. It depends whether you see the statues as memorials of soldiers, who fought bravely for their cause (the cause was by no means solely about slave ownership, there were major taxation issues also), or whether they were out and out racists. You need to remember that the black population wasn't universally welcomed as equals in the North either.

I was going to say that it is absolutely juvenile, on both sides, to be so exercised over symbols. Then I remembered somewhere much closer to home...

I don't mean allowed by the state, allowed by people
your post appears to be bordering on apologism
why do you "suspect that out and out fascists are outnumbered by those who see this as an attack on their heritage" ??

 

[Miss Caphat]

regarding the rallies happening this weekend, there is one here in Boston. I'm not going but I spent a lot of time on the facebook page of the "Free Speech Rally" and was absolutely disgusted with the level of duplicity and spin the organizers have been doing.

they have answered almost every comment or accusation with "We are not in any way promoting white supremacy / KKK / alt-right etc, how dare you even think that? we're appalled you would even make such a suggestion" even though every single speaker they had invited was some sort of white supremacist or Nazi / Holocaust denier / KKK fuck.

I'm not going to post the link to their page here but it's easy to find if anyone want to engage in some healthy debate with them

What we know about the ‘free speech’ rally planned this weekend on Boston Common