Bitcoin discussion and news

[butchersapron]

To be fair that post sounds more like an exercise in thought, rather than an expression that it actually will run the world economy.

Sure, but it was the bit that you cut out that i was referring to - the bolded in particular:

so excuse me if I tend to roll my eyes at those still not getting how a world economy can run on only 21 million units or express their offence at people having crazy money making schemes, as if this is only just now the invention of money and credit itself.

 

[Idaho]

Are they not more connected to the production of use-value then? In the real world i mean? Have i got that wrong?

Only in the sense that the US dollar has greater links to use value than the Bermudian dollar. The former is more widely recognised, accepted and used and is the currency of the world's largest economy. This doesn't mean that the Bermudian dollar is a meaningless trinket of no use.

 

[butchersapron]

Only in the sense that the US dollar has greater links to use value than the Bermudian dollar. The former is more widely recognised, accepted and used and is the currency of the world's largest economy. This doesn't mean that the Bermudian dollar is a meaningless trinket of no use.

And what regulates this bermudian dollar - and how and why?

 

[Idaho]

The Bermudian state declares it to be the currency within its borders and demands tax payments and state expenses be made in it.

 

[butchersapron]

The Bermudian state declares it to be the currency within its borders and demands tax payments and state expenses be made in it.

That's not what i mean by regulation - as you must surely know. If you do, why play such silly games? If you don't then: The bermudian economy is tied to the conditions of global value production - it as a whole is regulated by what the world economy does and specific powers within that global economy (powers based on value production), as is the bermudian dollar. Can you imagine how that might apply to the bitcoin model at all?

 

[Idaho]

All currencies have exchange value but no direct use value. It is only confidence in their future exchange value that gives the Bermudian dollar this exchange value. We can reasonably expect the Bermudian state to be there in at least a few years, so accept their dollar as legit currency. Not so with Btc. It could be worth £1000, £1 or zero in a few years.

I'd be happy to see an example of a currency with use value.

 

[butchersapron]

All currencies have exchange value but no direct use value. It is only confidence in their future exchange value that gives the Bermudian dollar this exchange value.

I'd be happy to see an example of a currency with use value.

Omg. I'm talking about real world politics here - not some model that only exists on paper. Are you denying the situation that i outlined above exists?

 

[Idaho]

Am I denying what in particular? Perhaps give it to me one statement at a time.

 

[butchersapron]

Am I denying what in particular? Perhaps give it to me one statement at a time.

I did, you ignored it:

The bermudian economy is tied to the conditions of global value production - it as a whole is regulated by what the world economy does and specific powers within that global economy (powers based on value production), as is the bermudian dollar. Can you imagine how that might apply to the bitcoin model at all?

 

[Idaho]

That is a convoluted statement followed by a question. What bit do you want me to deny?

 

[Idaho]

Yes the Bermudian state is tired into the global economy.

The second sentence is hard to fathom.

 

[butchersapron]

That is a convoluted statement followed by a question. What bit do you want me to deny?

I don't want you to deny it, i want you to respond to it in the same way that it was a response to a post made by you to me. Or are we back to fingers in the ears? So soon?

 

[butchersapron]

Yes the Bermudian state is tired into the global economy.

The second sentence is hard to fathom.

Is it really? Ok try this, the bermudian economy is weak and at the mercy of bigger powers (regulated you could say).

 

[fredfelt]

Sure, but it was the bit that you cut out that i was referring to - the bolded in particular:

Busy day today so I'll pick that up . I read that as a response to claims that there were not enough units. The poster had other discussions that the number of units was irrelevant as you can subdivide them to as many smaller units.

those still not getting how a world economy can run on only 21 million units

Anyway it's not up to me to explain. I just don't read it as a serious claim that Bitcoin's will be the worlds currency.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Can you imagine how that might apply to the bitcoin model at all?

How could it not?

 

[butchersapron]

How could it not?

I think it's Idaho who may need to explain that.

 

[bi0boy]

If there was a bitcoin app for mobile phones and Zimbabwe's hyperinflation happened today, it's pretty obvious that bitcoin would become the de facto currency of that country, what with Africa being ahead of the rest of the world in mobile phone payments.

 

[camouflage]

Here - you flagrantly express the idea that bitcoin can run the world economy don't you?

wow. this is classic sample of 'inside the mind of butchersapron' right here. interpretation is a funny old game really, when you think about it.

 

[camouflage]

If there was a bitcoin app for mobile phones and Zimbabwe's hyperinflation happened today, it's pretty obvious that bitcoin would become the de facto currency of that country, what with Africa being ahead of the rest of the world in mobile phone payments.

Rumour has it that btc is taking off in Argentina. Might just be another myth though, like the whole Cyprus thing. Argies have a culture of being quite inventive though in terms of their quest to seek refuge from inflation, perhaps the btc/Cyprus myth caught their attention.

 

[Idaho]

Is it really? Ok try this, the bermudian economy is weak and at the mercy of bigger powers (regulated you could say).

Yes Bermuda is small and follows the usual global economic rules. That sounds reasonable.

 

[butchersapron]

wow. this is classic sample of 'inside the mind of butchersapron' right here. interpretation is a funny old game really, when you think about it.

So, let's get this right then, when you said that you were tired of telling people how bitcoin could run the world economy, you weren't implicitly agreeing that bitcoin could run the world economy?

 

[butchersapron]

Yes Bermuda is small and follows the usual global economic rules. That sounds reasonable.

So, a small thing that regulated by a big thing doesn't have that much autonomy, right? It's at the mercy of its regulators, right?

 

[Idaho]

Yep. Although regulators is a bit vague here. There are numerous interested parties who are involved. Soft and hard power.

 

[camouflage]

So, let's get this right then, when you said that you were tired of telling people how bitcoin could run the world economy, you weren't implicitly agreeing that bitcoin could run the world economy?

I am interested in interesting conversations about bitcoin (that interest me anyway), I just find it pointless seeing the same old criticisms trotted out by people who think the're the first to cry Tulip or whatever and betray that they haven't quite grasped the implications of this technology that are worth considering for better or worse. As a social democrat I'd like to try and envision how mixed-economies and welfare states can thrive in a world of crypto-currencies, so excuse me if I tend to roll my eyes at those still not getting how a world economy can run on only 21 million units or express their offence at people having crazy money making schemes, as if this is only just now the invention of money and credit itself.

This is me saying how I get frustrated with the n00b criticisms of bitcoin that make basic n00by errors about how to assess it, understandable as this is a technology that's not been seen before (walks like a duck, quaks like a dog, inflates like a puffer fish etc).

This is me saying I'd like to assess this strange new beast within the framework of the political value system I subscribe to (instead of libertard fuckwittery for a change), and that I look forward to conversations that get beyond the basic technical misconceptions (for instance "but there's only 21 million units, how can that work?" or "but people can do stuff with it that they can do with money, doesn't that fly in the face of what bitcoin is supposed to be about?" etc.

Nout wrong with n00bism, we all start as n00bs in everything we do. It's the sneery forthwright n00bism I find a little irritating. After a few pages though people usually start asking better more challenging questions, making observations that make yer btc-enthusiast sit back and think... yeah, what about that? I liked that link you posted from the German language site, didn't agree with all of it but it was definitely beyond the arrogant n00b assertions stage, battering discussions with giant steaming chunks of received wisdom and current paradigm orthodoxy.

 

[newbie]

Surely that's no different from notes and coins. They have no use value - only exchange value.

they are, however ultimately backed by tanks. Which is what gives rise to confidence.

There's no tanks involved with Bitcoin, and thus confidence has to be established some other way. atm it's just faith.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

they are, however ultimately backed by tanks. Which is what gives rise to confidence.

There's no tanks involved with Bitcoin, and thus confidence has to be established some other way. atm it's just faith.

I'd argue that strength of the economy is more important than tanks. And all money's value is based on faith.

I certainly agree that confidence in btc is likely to be incredibly fragile. But I wouldn't be totally sure of that - if it became established in certain areas of e-commerce, it could conceivably become stable.

 

[Idaho]

North Korea has loads more tanks than Bermuda. Does that make people more confident in its currency?

 

[kabbes]

You are saying that the UK government acts as a "market maker" in that sense. Offering to buy and sell at stable rates.

Almost, but I don't think that they really "buy and sell". All the transactions are in the same currency, so there is no buying and selling going on. That's a big difference to something like bitcoin, which only has value in the context of its exchange rate to other currencies.

 

[Idaho]

Yeah I should have put buy and sell in quotes. Give and receive really... Although there is some element of buy and sell in the bond market isn't there?

 

[newbie]

within NK yes. I doubt it's traded internationally because they're at loggerheads with everyone else and their tanks aren't sufficient to provide confidence.