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littlebabyjesus said:
It's not for any of the reasons you have given so far for people to be anti-crypto.
Click to expand...
That wouldn't surprise me. I never assume it's because of the reasons in their critique of crypto, so I hardly ever speculate on their motives.

You'll be disapointed to learn that it's virtyally impossible for everything on Ethereum to be fucked up to the point the whole thing collapses.

There's just too many other tokenised assets other than Ether on that blockchain and now, they are offering a $1 million USD bounty on any critical bugs.

Some users are bound to have problems, but there's a reason why there's a whole bunch of different software interacting with that blockchain. It's called client diversity.
 
I'm not anticipating a collapse due to a bug. I'm hoping for a collapse in the value of the thing due to evaporation of confidence in its future value.

Such a collapse may well not happen, but you're mistaken if you think it can't happen.
 
NoXion said:
Confirmation that you're an actual fucking moron. Sterling didn't just recently have an absolutely massive chunk of its value wiped away.
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Well, today I choose bitcoin, ether and sterling. But as I said, if you put a gun to my head and I had to pick one, Ether would win. It's just so much more useful, so useful, it's more likely to be around and of value than the rest in 30 years time.

With your logic there is a bit of a witchhunt on.

Anti crypto : "Crypto is too volatile, you would have lost money this week!"

Pro crypto : "Yeah but it's a better store of value long term, what was £40,000 4 years ago is now over £500,000 today"

Anti crypto: "You lot are nasty horrible greedy cunts!!!!!"
 
littlebabyjesus said:
I'm not anticipating a collapse due to a bug. I'm hoping for a collapse in the value of the thing due to evaporation of confidence in its future value.

Such a collapse may well not happen, but you're mistaken if you think it can't happen.
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It's remote, very remote, but if something really, really bad happened, they will always be able to fix it, possibly to the annoyance of people involved in newer transactions that have to be rolled back. People's confidence would be damaged, but it would recover.

Of course, there will be some out there who will pick up any issues and blow it all up out of proportion.

Edit to add : I think it's a bit underhand unfair for anti-crypto people to start arguing on the basis of how much it would be worth, because I know that if we got into that, after making about 280 posts mainly on how useful the tech is, people will pile on and start claiming that I'm proof that pro-crypto people are obsessed with making money out of speculation.
 
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StakerOne said:
Well, today I choose bitcoin, ether and sterling. But as I said, if you put a gun to my head and I had to pick one, Ether would win. It's just so much more useful, so useful, it's more likely to be around and of value than the rest in 30 years time.

With your logic there is a bit of a witchhunt on.

Anti crypto : "Crypto is too volatile, you would have lost money this week!"

Pro crypto : "Yeah but it's a better store of value long term, what was £40,000 4 years ago is now over £500,000 today"

Anti crypto: "You lot are nasty horrible greedy cunts!!!!!"
Click to expand...
The Bit in Red does not make the bits in Green mutually exclusive and going up >1000% in 4 years is volatile.

I'm sure there are plenty of charities that will happily take your hated £ from you.
 
Part of the function of cash is precisely its short-term stability. The point of holding assets as cash is that you need to pay for things over the next few months but you don’t know precisely what or precisely when. A form of cash that varies in any meaningful way on a day-to-day basis is totally pointless.
 
StakerOne said:
As I said, I don't know how the exact mechanism works for authority. It's a big assumption to assume that there is only one entity controlling it. It's much more likely that there's a whole bunch of companies on it and it would take a vote of 51% of those companies to kick another one off it,
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The bit of the whitepaper you mentioned is pretty explicit:
GreenToken, on the other hand, operates on a
private, permissioned blockchain network that
is governed by SAP.This allows GreenToken the
ability to ensure that only data centers that are
powered by green energy generated from renew-
ables are used to host blockchain nodes.
GreenToken has chosen an infrastructure suppli-
er that has guaranteed 93 percent of energy is
from green sources with a low carbon impact.
In addition to this, GreenToken uses a ‘proof of
authority’ mechanism to mint new tokens which
uses no more power than a conventional data-
base and vastly less than ‘proof of work’.
Click to expand...
SAP govern the chain, just as they govern the energy supplier used to host validation nodes. It seems highly likely that 51% will be in the hands of Unilever or SAP, who work for them. The farmer, and the food processor at the other end of the supply chain will have no more power than they do now.

Even if that's not the case, how will 51% of blockchain participants identify a bad faith actor using forged certificates or something? What mechanism will untamperability provide that is unavailable using legacy SQL type database technology? Kicking people off is a red herring.

The only way to ensure a blockchain is not tampered with is to throw energy at it, with PoW being the mechanism which is considered most consensually tamperproof (although trusting FOSS is an act of faith as has been pointed out many times re Bash, but it could equally have been Apache)

so the very important advantage would be that once data is written to their blockchain, it cannot be tampered with.
Click to expand...
Sure. And currently the palm oil farmer, or a downstream retailer, lives in fear that the database supplier to Unilever will alter the an SQL db after the fact? Come on!

As soon as you move your chain from PoW to PoS you compromise the principle of trustlessness, and moving to PoA removes it more or less completely. This blockchain is centralised and permissioned. What is it achieving that can't be done by an SQL db with a password?
 
gosub said:
www.forbes.com

More Than Half Of All Bitcoin Trades Are Fake

A new Forbes analysis of 157 crypto exchanges finds that 51% of the daily bitcoin trading volume being reported is likely bogus.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com
Click to expand...

So centralised crypto exchanges suffer from all the same problems as FX exchanges.

Except that the regulators won't regulate the centralised crypto exchanges.

Why on Earth would they do that? They have to make crypto look back so they can go after the sucessful de-fi projects rather than where the scams are.

It's not bitcoin's fault if there is wash trading going on with the centralised crypto exchanges.

Public blockchains can't do anything about that. Regulators can. But they won't, because they are corrupt.

One of my banker friends says that £the banks aren't a problem because it's against the law to launder".

Well OK..................................cryptos aren't involved in laundering because laundering is illegal!

Fuck me, it's like saying that the United States doesn't have a illicit drugs problem because that stuff is against the law!

Let's face it. If the regulator can't actually even see what is going on behind closed doors in the banks, they're as useful as a chocolate fire-guard.

It's the same with centralised exchanges.

It takes a whistle-blower for anything to be done.

No such problem with smart contracts on the blockchain. You read the code, it does what it says, no one can cheat it unless there's a bug and even then, users or even the project stake-holders can insure themselves against it.

Transparent decentralised exchanges are the future. The crooks in the banks and centralised exchanges, who are robbing people blind and who lobby governments to restrict everyones rights, just so they can keep their monopoly to launder, will thankfully become a thing of the past.
 
StakerOne said:
Well, today I choose bitcoin, ether and sterling. But as I said, if you put a gun to my head and I had to pick one, Ether would win. It's just so much more useful, so useful, it's more likely to be around and of value than the rest in 30 years time.

With your logic there is a bit of a witchhunt on.

Anti crypto : "Crypto is too volatile, you would have lost money this week!"

Pro crypto : "Yeah but it's a better store of value long term, what was £40,000 4 years ago is now over £500,000 today"

Anti crypto: "You lot are nasty horrible greedy cunts!!!!!"
Click to expand...
You have to cherry-pick your dates rather carefully to get a favourable figure.

Over the last year, bitcoin has lost half its value vs fiat (bit more than that when you factor in inflation, but I'll ignore that aspect).

Over the last five years, bitcoin has gained 400% its value vs fiat.

But over the last four and a half years, it's only gained about 20% its value (you'd have done almost as well with an ISA).

And you also need to bear in mind when most people bought in. Most people didn't buy in when its value was low. Most people bought in when its value was high.

The Line Goes Up crowd cling to the pattern in which each slump remains above the high of the previous boom. That still just about holds true, but it's a pattern that will be followed until it isn't. Unless you can explain why this pattern exists and why it won't be broken, it doesn't mean much in terms of future predictions.
 
newbie said:
The bit of the whitepaper you mentioned is pretty explicit:

SAP govern the chain, just as they govern the energy supplier used to host validation nodes. It seems highly likely that 51% will be in the hands of Unilever or SAP, who work for them. The farmer, and the food processor at the other end of the supply chain will have no more power than they do now.

Even if that's not the case, how will 51% of blockchain participants identify a bad faith actor using forged certificates or something? What mechanism will untamperability provide that is unavailable using legacy SQL type database technology? Kicking people off is a red herring.

The only way to ensure a blockchain is not tampered with is to throw energy at it, with PoW being the mechanism which is considered most consensually tamperproof (although trusting FOSS is an act of faith as has been pointed out many times re Bash, but it could equally have been Apache)


Sure. And currently the palm oil farmer, or a downstream retailer, lives in fear that the database supplier to Unilever will alter the an SQL db after the fact? Come on!

As soon as you move your chain from PoW to PoS you compromise the principle of trustlessness, and moving to PoA removes it more or less completely. This blockchain is centralised and permissioned. What is it achieving that can't be done by an SQL db with a password?
Click to expand...
I'm not a fan of private blockchains but you asked what the advantages would be over a normal database.

Even if what you say is true, that SAP can control the blockchain, they would only be able to stop new transactions from going through in that they could stop another entity such as a farmer from transactiong with it.

Older transactions could not be modified. They might be able to "roll back" the blockchain, but they would have to throw the baby out with the water because they would be forced to ditch transactions they "like" as well as the ones they are offended by.

Furthermore, anyone involved would be able to take copies of the blockchain as evidence.

So my overarching argument still stands. It's useful because the data can't be tampered without everyone else knowing. The same is not true of a database.

newbie said:
As soon as you move your chain from PoW to PoS you compromise the principle of trustlessness, and moving to PoA removes it more or less completely.
Click to expand...
That is patently not true and you haven't posted anything that remotely supports that argument. As for PoA which I'm not even a fan of, please see above. It doesn't remove trust at all, as long as a stakeholder is content that they would have legal recourse if SAP either nuked the entire chain OR rolled it back.
 
kabbes said:
Part of the function of cash is precisely its short-term stability. The point of holding assets as cash is that you need to pay for things over the next few months but you don’t know precisely what or precisely when. A form of cash that varies in any meaningful way on a day-to-day basis is totally pointless.
Click to expand...

I don't know how many times I've repeated this, perhaps you enjoy getting me to repeat the same thing over and over and over again.

I HAVE NEVER ARGUED FOR CRYPTO TO REPLACE FIAT CURRENCY.

I MUST HAVE TOLD YOU ABOUT AT LEAST TWENTY TIMES, THAT FIAT CURRENCY EXISTS AND IS STORED ON THE SAME BLOCKCHAINS.

TODAY, YES TODAY, I EVEN POSTED THAT MANY CRYPTO ADVOCATES INCLUDING MYSELF, WANT TO BE ABLE TO PAY IN OUR LOCAL CURRENCY FROM SMART CONTRACTS USING OUR DEBIT CARDS.

SO IS THERE ANY CHANCE TOMORROW, THAT YOU WILL REFRAIN FROM MAKING STUPID STRAWMAN ARGUMENTS?

THANKS, AWFULLY,

A. MORON.

XX
 
StakerOne said:
And you aren't? Please.
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Not a great response.

I gave a range of answers, including one (5 years back) that gives a very favourable figure and another (4.5 years back) that doesn't.

Your response to someone who bought bitcoin/ether/whatever one year ago and has lost half their money right now is what? Don't worry, everything's going to plan?

And what about my point about when people are more likely to have bought in? Remember that everyone who bought in during the 18 months between the start of 2021 and mid-2022 has currently lost money, most of them a lot of money.
 
StakerOne said:
I don't know how many times I've repeated this, perhaps you enjoy getting me to repeat the same thing over and over and over again.

I HAVE NEVER ARGUED FOR CRYPTO TO REPLACE FIAT CURRENCY.

I MUST HAVE TOLD YOU ABOUT AT LEAST TWENTY TIMES, THAT FIAT CURRENCY EXISTS AND IS STORED ON THE SAME BLOCKCHAINS.

TODAY, YES TODAY, I EVEN POSTED THAT MANY CRYPTO ADVOCATES INCLUDING MYSELF, WANT TO BE ABLE TO PAY IN OUR LOCAL CURRENCY FROM SMART CONTRACTS USING OUR DEBIT CARDS.

SO IS THERE ANY CHANCE TOMORROW, THAT YOU WILL REFRAIN FROM MAKING STUPID STRAWMAN ARGUMENTS?

THANKS, AWFULLY,

A. MORON.

XX
Click to expand...
Oh dear, are you not having fun?

I mean, you did say that you would rather give up Sterling than give up Bitcoin…
 
littlebabyjesus said:
I guess it's a case of watch this space wrt the Great Ethereum Fork that's coming up.

I sincerely hope it fucks the whole thing up and confidence in the entire ethereum ecosystem (ugh) collapses.

And I don't think you get why I hope that. I'll give you a clue. It's not for any of the reasons you have given so far for people to be anti-crypto.
Click to expand...
Is it because you're part of the great reset secret government of the world?
 
kabbes said:
Oh dear, are you not having fun?

I mean, you did say that you would rather give up Sterling than give up Bitcoin…
Click to expand...
IF someone put a gun to my head, forcing me to make a choice.

I appreciate it must be frustating for you to lose every point that you try to make.

It doesn't matter to me whether you agree or not, but you keep parroting the same old tired rehashed shite making arguments against stuff that no one is even advocating.

I guess I'm just going to have to leave you to make yourself look stupid, if that's what you're hellbent on doing.
 
StakerOne said:
IF someone put a gun to my head, forcing me to make a choice.

I appreciate it must be frustating for you to lose every point that you try to make.

It doesn't matter to me whether you agree or not, but you keep parroting the same old tired rehashed shite making arguments against stuff that no one is even advocating.

I guess I'm just going to have to leave you to make yourself look stupid, if that's what you're hellbent on doing.
Click to expand...
Gun to your head or not, you’d prefer to give up the stable currency that people use every day to make countless transactions rather than the unstable, ideological niche. Yay, go you.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Your response to someone who bought bitcoin/ether/whatever one year ago and has lost half their money right now is what? Don't worry, everything's going to plan?
Click to expand...

My response (which isn't financial advice) would be that selling when you have a paper loss just because you're down on any asset is absolutely crazy.

Someone who sells any asset just because of the price, is actually saying that the asset in question would never ever be above that price.

Now if you (or even me) had some information that we believe would fundamentally impact the bitcoin price so that we believe it's never gonna go above that price, you know, the view that it's terminally doomed, then fair enough, sell. But I don't believe bitcoin is terminally doomed.
 
kabbes said:
Gun to your head or not, you’d prefer to give up the stable currency that people use every day to make countless transactions rather than the unstable, ideological niche. Yay, go you.
Click to expand...
The other advantage of sterling is you can buy stuff like food with it, not just drugs and illegal sexual images.

Be an interesting experiment. How long can stalkerone survive on a strict diet of child porn and heroin?
 
kabbes said:
Gun to your head or not, you’d prefer to give up the stable currency that people use every day to make countless transactions rather than the unstable, ideological niche. Yay, go you.
Click to expand...

That is patently not true and I've never said anything that implies as such. Every time you lie in such a naughty wicked way, somewhere on this planet, a kitten dies, horribly. I don't know how you sleep at night.
 
StakerOne said:
That is patently not true and I've never said anything that implies as such. Every time you lie in such a naughty wicked way, somewhere on this planet, a kitten dies, horribly. I don't know how you sleep at night.
Click to expand...
Alright, gun to your head, are you giving up Sterling or Bitcoin?
 
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