Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Bitcoin discussion and news

Apart from the dark web is there anything else it’s used regularly for?
A while ago it was being touted as a means of making money transfers for people from the Global South. I have no idea how much that has taken off. As monkeygrinder said, it's not the easiest thing to use - there are much easier ways to transfer money.
 
Also, aren't there already money transfer systems using dumb phones that are popular in certain parts of the world? I vaguely recall reading something about that.
 
It's interesting that although the most basic financial concepts (including debt and debt forgiveness) seem to have been current in ancient Sumeria soon after the invention of writing, it's not until the rise of Egyptian civilisation that we have evidence for pyramid schemes.
Here, I'd like to show you something

1621510714044.png
 
They might have tweaked this since I last looked into it but the adjustment to the hardness isn't instant. It was done every two weeks.

That's true, I don't know how quickly it adjusts, so there would be a short term effect.

If this doesn't count as a pyramid scheme, it's hard to know what would.

I think there's a really pointless but interesting discussion about whether this is technically a pyramid scheme, a ponzi scheme or something else/new which is also a financial scam but operates in a technically different manner. It's pointless though because the conclusion is that it's fundamentally a scam and it doesn't really matter if it's a pyramid or a ponzi scheme you get scammed by.

There's something about how cryptocurrencies generate their own payments for transactions from nothing by simply creating more of itself that has always smelled scammy to me, but which isn't really the same as getting new investors in a ponzi scheme to payout your old investors, and isn't the same as getting new people to pay into a pyramid scheme either.

But is that a key component of the cryptocurrency scam or not?
I don't think you can call it a ponzi scheme because there's no individual at the centre bringing in new investors to payout old investors (or more usually, keep the old investors in with paper gains whilst you spend all their money on blackjack and hookers).
Pyramid schemes make "investors" money directly from the enrolment of new "investors". The difference between a pyramid scheme and stocks/art is that with stocks/art/commodities you are buying an asset which has some kind of intrinsic value. Crypto enthusiast will argue that crypto has the same value as other currency - it's not exactly intrinsic but as long as people use it (whether for transactions or as a store of value) then it has real value.
Which leaves us with straightforward pump and dump schemes, but in extremis because (a) there's no regulation and (b) the actual uses of crypto are so limited.
But because there are actual uses for BTC, whereas a pyramid scheme actually has nothing, can we technically call it a pyramid scheme? idk.

Should note that it can be a pyramid scheme whilst still having pump and dump operations run on it. Loads of crypto pump and dump groups out there apparently, shilling shitcoins to people.
 
I would say that crypto is almost entirely a pure case of persuading a bunch of people that they should buy into something just because they will in turn be able to sell it to the next bunch for more. As long as the number of people being persuaded grows, those at the base levels see their pot grow.

I’m sure there are a hardcore of true believers. I’m equally sure that’s true for every pyramid scheme, which always has something that sounds good at its heart. If your pyramid scheme is based on vitamins then some or even many people might genuinely think the vitamins are good.

I’m equally sure there is some use for crypto, such as illegal transactions. Again, there is some use for vitamins. The thing that makes it a pyramid scheme is that its value isn’t based on that use, it’s based on getting ever larger numbers of people to sign up.
 
BitCoin is a pyramid scheme that has a figleaf of functionality (claiming to be a "currency") to make it more convincing to the rubes. I think it does this by using a version of the Sunk Costs Fallacy; it "must" be worth something, otherwise why would so many people have put so much energy and resources into mining it?
 
I must admit despite despite spending an evening researching it I still don't really understand what the hell it all is about. e.g. 'mining' and 'blockchains'.. I will leave it to criminals and people who work in ICT.
 
BitCoin is a pyramid scheme that has a figleaf of functionality (claiming to be a "currency") to make it more convincing to the rubes. I think it does this by using a version of the Sunk Costs Fallacy; it "must" be worth something, otherwise why would so many people have put so much energy and resources into mining it?
We've seen it on this thread, with posters asserting that the value of bitcoin is somehow a 'store' of the energy used in the mining. It makes no sense whatever, but this false logic has clearly seduced some.
 
I must admit despite despite spending an evening researching it I still don't really understand what the hell it all is about. e.g. 'mining' and 'blockchains'.. I will leave it to criminals and people who work in ICT.
I don't think you need to look past the spiralling energy waste that goes into the mining to see that it's something that shouldn't exist.
 
Even if the energy used was carbon neutral, it's basically just proof that you've pushed the entire universe just that little bit closer to heat death, while doing absolutely nothing of use with the energy along the way.

Surely if any value were to be attached to such a thing, it would be a negative one?
 
Even if the energy used was carbon neutral, it's basically just proof that you've pushed the entire universe just that little bit closer to heat death, while doing absolutely nothing of use with the energy along the way.

Surely if any value were to be attached to such a thing, it would be a negative one?
Yep. If the algorithm that needs solving served a purpose, did something useful, it could make some sense to see bitcoin as a symbolic store of that value. But it doesn't, so it isn't.

Should be called Entropycoin or something. Doomcoin. Disorderdollar.
 
It's worth mentioning that there are computationally intensive tasks being done right now, such as protein folding calculations, which do serve a useful purpose and which could conceivably form the basis of a digital currency.

Yet what did we actually get? BitCoin. A parasitic scheme masquerading as a means of exchange.
 
It's worth mentioning that there are computationally intensive tasks being done right now, such as protein folding calculations, which do serve a useful purpose and which could conceivably form the basis of a digital currency.

Yet what did we actually get? BitCoin. A parasitic scheme masquerading as a means of exchange.
The idea of a proof of work crypto currency using the computation power for something useful seems, superficially, attractive. The issue is that it would be extremely difficult to enable that while maintaining a decentralised system.

Bitcoin, in its current form, uses proof of work in order to be permissionless. You don't need approval to be a miner, user or node. There is no central team who can decide to cut off particular transactions, users or miners.

So far, all proof of stake systems that have been proposed as the way forward have had these central management teams. Essentially they are no different from private databases.

What's going to be interesting is how the various different Central Bank digital currencies (CBDCs) will work. They won't need to be proof of work, and can be computationally trivial to manage. But what will be the impact of these new financial processes?
 
Bitcoin, in its current form, uses proof of work in order to be permissionless. You don't need approval to be a miner, user or node. There is no central team who can decide to cut off particular transactions, users or miners.
The massive irony of this bit, of course, is that, while you don't need permission to open a block, merely proof of useless work, you do need the permission of the particular miner to have your transaction placed on that block.

Here's a short guide to transaction fees. Basically bung a bit on and hope for the best. It is then out of your hands. :thumbs: And the very decentralised nature of the thing is its limiting factor - only 1 mb of information per block, so per 10 minutes. That's a very small and strict limit on its potential use value.

Explaining bitcoin transaction fees

Priority fee means it will be confirmed in an hour. That's the more expensive, 'fast' option. Meanwhile, when I buy things using Visa, it's confirmed in, what, three seconds?

Aside from the traceability issues for illegal activity, I still fail to see why anyone would choose to use something like bitcoin to make transactions.
 
The massive irony of this bit, of course, is that, while you don't need permission to open a block, merely proof of useless work, you do need the permission of the particular miner to have your transaction placed on that block.

Here's a short guide to transaction fees. Basically bung a bit on and hope for the best. It is then out of your hands. :thumbs: And the very decentralised nature of the thing is its limiting factor - only 1 mb of information per block, so per 10 minutes. That's a very small and strict limit on its potential use value.

Explaining bitcoin transaction fees

Priority fee means it will be confirmed in an hour. That's the more expensive, 'fast' option. Meanwhile, when I buy things using Visa, it's confirmed in, what, three seconds?

Aside from the traceability issues for illegal activity, I still fail to see why anyone would choose to use something like bitcoin to make transactions.
Bitcoin is a very poor transaction system. If it ever works properly, the bitcoin Blockchain would have to be a settlement layer with distributed layers managing transactions. After all there is no need to have a Starbucks purchase recorded and kept on a global immutable ledger.

Visa is an interesting comparison. Visa is an in house system. It's a private database, so has no particular limits on throughput. It's a ledger, but a private one. I can't verify your visa payments. I have to trust visa to do that.
 
Visa is an interesting comparison. Visa is an in house system. It's a private database, so has no particular limits on throughput. It's a ledger, but a private one. I can't verify your visa payments. I have to trust visa to do that.
Yep. For some reason, this 'third party' involvement is the thing that bitcoiners object to, which I can see sense in if what you're doing is illegal. But a third party is still involved in a bitcoin transaction - namely the miner.
 
The massive irony of this bit, of course, is that, while you don't need permission to open a block, merely proof of useless work, you do need the permission of the particular miner to have your transaction placed on that block.
Not sure that is particularly ironic. Miners can decide which transactions to include in their blocks - likely favouring those with the highest fees or perhaps their own transactions. But any particular miner is extremely unlikely to be the one processing the next block. If all miners that were currently mining decided to censor particular transactions, then you would have censorship, but there is nothing to stop another miner switching on and processing these particular transactions.
 
Not sure that is particularly ironic. Miners can decide which transactions to include in their blocks - likely favouring those with the highest fees or perhaps their own transactions. But any particular miner is extremely unlikely to be the one processing the next block. If all miners that were currently mining decided to censor particular transactions, then you would have censorship, but there is nothing to stop another miner switching on and processing these particular transactions.
sure. But you're relying on the goodwill of the miners to keep the thing functioning, and the nature of the mechanism has led to the escalating fees system. It is in the miners' interests to keep the thing functioning as well as it can, so you have that in your favour, but the fate of your transaction is still in the hands of random strangers who have no obligation towards you. It's ironic, imo, because of the bleating by bitcoin enthusiasts about third party involvement.

As I said, unless you are doing something that you specifically want to keep hidden, Visa is just a much better system to do this with. And that's before you even consider the despicable waste of energy.

Bc fails on many levels.
 
Yep. For some reason, this 'third party' involvement is the thing that bitcoiners object to, which I can see sense in if what you're doing is illegal. But a third party is still involved in a bitcoin transaction - namely the miner.
Bitcoin is not a great choice for illegal transactions. At least not until someone addresses the lack of privacy and the potential lack of fungibility.

Seeing miners as a third party to transactions between me and you, if you were to send me bitcoin, isn't wrong, as such. However in reality it doesn't quite work the same way as a bank or cdbc would be a third party. If I send you £5 from my bank to yours, we are both depending on our banks to verify that we have money and to adjust their private ledgers accordingly. With bitcoin, you wouldn't need anyone to verify from a private ledger. No one would need to trust that you are good for your money. It's all there for anyone to verify. Yes you rely on all miners not deliberately excluding your transaction - but not sure that's quite the same as trusting a third party.
 
Bitcoin is not a great choice for illegal transactions. At least not until someone addresses the lack of privacy and the potential lack of fungibility.

Seeing miners as a third party to transactions between me and you, if you were to send me bitcoin, isn't wrong, as such. However in reality it doesn't quite work the same way as a bank or cdbc would be a third party. If I send you £5 from my bank to yours, we are both depending on our banks to verify that we have money and to adjust their private ledgers accordingly. With bitcoin, you wouldn't need anyone to verify from a private ledger. No one would need to trust that you are good for your money. It's all there for anyone to verify. Yes you rely on all miners not deliberately excluding your transaction - but not sure that's quite the same as trusting a third party.
Yes, sure, you're right, the miner isn't checking anything about you. But you still rely on them to complete your transaction. I don't know how many times transactions have been 'lost' in the system. I'd be amazed if it were zero times. And you'd have no comeback.
 
But you're relying on the goodwill of the miners to keep the thing functioning
You are relying on their economic imperatives. It's actually quite a hard business I believe. You have a limited shelf life for your processors and there is increasingly pressure from states about energy use. I think any miner that tries to get too fancy and not just process the highest paying transactions will be in trouble.
 
Bc fails on many levels.
The original intention was to create an independent money supply that had a mathematically predictable rate of monetary inflation. The inventor was obsessed by central bank monetary debasement. In his/her/their eyes, it will be a success or failure if conventional money, fiat, suffers significant inflation and bitcoin does not.
 
Bitcoin is not a great choice for illegal transactions. At least not until someone addresses the lack of privacy and the potential lack of fungibility.

Seeing miners as a third party to transactions between me and you, if you were to send me bitcoin, isn't wrong, as such. However in reality it doesn't quite work the same way as a bank or cdbc would be a third party. If I send you £5 from my bank to yours, we are both depending on our banks to verify that we have money and to adjust their private ledgers accordingly. With bitcoin, you wouldn't need anyone to verify from a private ledger. No one would need to trust that you are good for your money. It's all there for anyone to verify. Yes you rely on all miners not deliberately excluding your transaction - but not sure that's quite the same as trusting a third party.
Probably a stupid question but may I ask why you say that (bold bit) please Idaho
I thought sending some coin from 1 wallet to another is untraceable.
 
The original intention was to create an independent money supply that had a mathematically predictable rate of monetary inflation. The inventor was obsessed by central bank monetary debasement. In his/her/their eyes, it will be a success or failure if conventional money, fiat, suffers significant inflation and bitcoin does not.
One of the many pieces of utter bullshit that surrounds it, this crap about inflation. It's nonsense on stilts.
 
Back
Top Bottom