XL Bully dog - discussion

[TheWolfshead]

They're challenging dogs to own, and as that link says they are not indoors dogs at all. Not city dogs. tbh I think the idea that you should need a special licence for one is fair enough. There are campaigns in various countries to completely ban them, though. And the idea that they are potentially more trouble the closer they are genetically to wolves isn't quite right.

I once met a guy who had six of them. He lived out in the bush with them and said, as much as he loved them, he would never trust them completely. Part of the problem with them, as with XL bullies, is their size and strength.

 

[8ball]

I once met a guy who had six of them. He lived out in the bush with them and said, as much as he loved them, he would never trust them completely. Part of the problem with them, as with XL bullies, is their size and strength.

I feel similarly about my family.

 

[Serge Forward]

I once met a guy who had six of them. He lived out in the bush with them and said, as much as he loved them, he would never trust them completely. Part of the problem with them, as with XL bullies, is their size and strength.

See, I find this weird. Why would anyone want a dog they couldn't trust? It goes against the idea of the whole "man's (sic) best friend". I grew up with dogs and kept several myself and every single one I trusted with my life. One of them actually did save my life on one occasion. Not one of them ever bit or attacked anyone.

Dogs have been our close companions since humans lived in caves, and possibly contributed to our species' survival. But the aim of some breeders (and owners) of dogs like XL bullies seems to be to create dogs that go against that millennia-long companion relationship dogs have had with humans, turning them into nothing more than aggressive, psychotic and dangerous attack weapons.

 

[8ball]

Dogs have been our close companions since humans lived in caves, and possibly contributed to our species' survival. But the aim of some breeders (and owners) of dogs like XL bullies seems to be to create dogs that go against that millennia-long companion relationship dogs have had with humans, turning them into nothing more than aggressive, psychotic and dangerous attack weapons.

I think lots of them delude themselves that they can trust the dog.

 

[Cid]

See, I find this weird. Why would anyone want a dog they couldn't trust? It goes against the idea of the whole "man's (sic) best friend". I grew up with dogs and kept several myself and every single one I trusted with my life. One of them actually did save my life on one occasion. Not one of them ever bit or attacked anyone.

Dogs have been our close companions since humans lived in caves, and possibly contributed to our species' survival. But the aim of some breeders (and owners) of dogs like XL bullies seems to be to create dogs that go against that millennia-long companion relationship dogs have had with humans, turning them into nothing more than aggressive, psychotic and dangerous attack weapons.

I think you're applying your own relationship with your dogs to... all of human/dog history there. We have shared spaces with them, but the way we relate to them has undoubtedly changed in many, many ways (and probably gone back and forth according to a whole bunch of circumstances). Even here, now, you'll find a very different relationship between e.g a farm dog and a farmer to you and your dogs.

 

[Serge Forward]

I think you're applying your own relationship with your dogs to... all of human history there. We have shared spaces with them, but the way we relate to them has undoubtedly changed in many, many ways (and probably gone back and forth according to a whole bunch of circumstances). Even here, now, you'll find a very different relationship between e.g a farm dog and a farmer to you and your dogs.

Aye, maybe. I do get a bit sentimental over past mutts.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

See, I find this weird. Why would anyone want a dog they couldn't trust? It goes against the idea of the whole "man's (sic) best friend". I grew up with dogs and kept several myself and every single one I trusted with my life. One of them actually did save my life on one occasion. Not one of them ever bit or attacked anyone.

Dogs have been our close companions since humans lived in caves, and possibly contributed to our species' survival. But the aim of some breeders (and owners) of dogs like XL bullies seems to be to create dogs that go against that millennia-long companion relationship dogs have had with humans, turning them into nothing more than aggressive, psychotic and dangerous attack weapons.

My understanding about wolf dogs is only second-hand, particularly from reading Raymond Pierotti, who is an expert on them but also not unbiased. Among other things, he says that wolves, and wolf dogs by extension, retain their independence in a way that domestic dogs don't. So you never totally 'own' them. But the flip side of that is that they are generally more self-confident and less prone to neurosis than domestic dogs.

 

[Cid]

Put it another way, dogs have often performed some kind of work for us. Whether that's warning of predators in the very dim and distant, guarding herds etc. You don't always need or want something you can trust 100% to do that. Depending on the parameters of 'trust' of course. I mean a dog that barks at 60% of mountain lions isn't much cop.

e2a: obviously this isn't to say that those relationships can't also be of companionship. It's human stuff, it's messy.

 

[8ball]

Put it another way, dogs have often performed some kind of work for us. Whether that's warning of predators in the very dim and distant, guarding herds etc. You don't always need or want something you can trust 100% to do that. Depending on the parameters of 'trust' of course. I mean a dog that barks at 60% of mountain lions isn't much cop.

e2a: obviously this isn't to say that those relationships can't also be of companionship. It's human stuff, it's messy.

Aye, you might have a guard dog for the compound, but you wouldn't leave it with the baby.

 

[JimW]

They bred war dogs in antiquity. The terrier men round our village would basically beat their dogs into submission and to have them ready to kill on command.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I once met a guy who had six of them. He lived out in the bush with them and said, as much as he loved them, he would never trust them completely. Part of the problem with them, as with XL bullies, is their size and strength.

Again, from reading Pierotti, if you have more than one, they're very likely to form stronger bonds with each other than with you. Not necessarily a bad thing, but a different dynamic from fully domestic dogs.

 

[BristolEcho]

This thread made me read the whole Wikipedia page about Dogs and their co-evolution with humans the other night. Hardly remember any of it unfortunately as it was very science based, but it was pretty interesting.

Domestication of the dog - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If you get bored. Obviously it's irrelevant to this thread, and God made us all anyway.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

The media like scare stories. Chihuahuas aren't scary.

And yet rats are. Strange old world.

 

[Sweet FA]

I think my question re muzzling would be to ask if a breed needs muzzling in public even if it is well looked after and well socialised, then is that dog an appropriate animal to keep as a pet?

I don't see the problem with muzzling. All ex-racer greyhounds need muzzles as they can be a liability around small rabbity looking dogs. It's not that they need muzzles necessarily, more to be on the safe side. Not sure why the same couldn't be said of other (all?) breeds. Also makes other people feel better which seems to be a theme on the thread. Though there's also a perception that because they're got a muzzle, they must be dangerous.

Some people are going to be scared of all dogs, no matter the size, even though we're a society that accept dogs as pets, unlike many others. I'm very wary of terrier and smaller sized dogs as owners seem to think that because they're small, they're harmless so have no issue with their dogs approaching/barking at mine (mid-sized greyhound) - then laugh when he hides behind me.

Spymaster; haven't you got/had/looked after a 'dangerous dog' at some point?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This thread made me read the whole Wikipedia page about Dogs and their co-evolution with humans the other night. Hardly remember any of it unfortunately as it was very science based, but it was pretty interesting.

Domestication of the dog - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If you get bored. Obviously it's irrelevant to this thread, and God made us all anyway.

I can recommend this book. It puts the case for a non-orthodox theory of dog domestication, namely that people teamed up with wolves initially as hunting partners - as equals or even with the wolves taking the lead and teaching the humans how to hunt more effectively. They take seriously the various myths and stories from non-Western traditions and make the case that these tell a more compelling story about how wolves came to team up with humans than the 'scavenging at human camps' theory. I think they make a good case.

 

[vanya]

All XL bullies should be neutered; then the breed could die off naturally. Pity we can't do the same with some of their moronic owners.

 

[BristolEcho]

I can recommend this book. It puts the case for a non-orthodox theory of dog domestication, namely that people teamed up with wolves initially as hunting partners - as equals or even with the wolves taking the lead and teaching the humans how to hunt more effectively. They take seriously the various myths and stories from non-Western traditions and make the case that these tell a more compelling story about how wolves came to team up with humans than the 'scavenging at human camps' theory. I think they make a good case.

Thanks I did actually start to write a paragraph about that theory, but I didn't feel I was explaining it that well. I think wiki was suggesting that we learnt to cooperate more due to watching them and that we share many of the same traits and we don't see this cooperation in our closest ancestors. It's probably sourced from this book.

I'll add that book to my list as I find it quite interesting.

 

[8ball]

I think we'd see collaborative hunting in certain societies with wolves or wolf dogs if there was anything to this idea.
I'm not sure why such an arrangement would suddenly become less advantageous than carrying a genetically mutilated descendant around in a Louis Vuitton handbag.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Thanks I did actually start to write a paragraph about that theory, but I didn't feel I was explaining it that well. I think wiki was suggesting that we learnt to cooperate more due to watching them and that we share many of the same traits and we don't see this cooperation in our closest ancestors. It's probably sourced from this book.

I'll add that book to my list as I find it quite interesting.

Us watching them but also them watching us. Pierotti and Fogg stress that this was a two-way interaction. We recognised an affinity with wolves but wolves also recognised an affinity with us. And we both saw the use of the other in teaming up.

I think that's likely to be right. All too often theories about this kind of thing give agency to the humans and little else. But you see this today with the cooperation of dolphins with human fishers in various parts of the world. It is the dolphins that first recognised the potential for cooperation and initiated contact, not the humans.

Now, a new study suggests the dolphins are willing partners in this collaboration. They pay close attention to the humans, timing their actions to maximize their catch. The animals may even be guiding the people, says Simon Ingram, a marine biologist at the University of Plymouth who has studied the relationship between humans and dolphins in Brazil but was not involved with the current research. Over the years, dolphins have been showing the fishers “where to stand and when to get ready to throw their nets” in the murky waters, he says. “It’s almost as if the dolphins are training the humans.”

https://www.science.org/content/art...40 years,Atlantic Ocean into shallower waters.

'almost as if'. Even here, the author can't quite bring themselves to say it without qualification.

Sadly overfishing looks set to end this particular partnership.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think we'd see collaborative hunting in certain societies with wolves or wolf dogs if there was anything to this idea.
I'm not sure why such an arrangement would suddenly become less advantageous than carrying a genetically mutilated descendant around in a Louis Vuitton handbag.

Since domestic dog breeds have been produced - something that happened many thousands of years after humans and wolves began to cooperate - wolves have generally been driven away by humans. Pierotti and Fogg claim that this collaborative hunting was still in evidence in North America when Europeans arrived - it is attested to by traditional stories and by fragmentary evidence from past records. European settlers had very different ideas about the value of wolves.

 

[TheWolfshead]

Again, from reading Pierotti, if you have more than one, they're very likely to form stronger bonds with each other than with you. Not necessarily a bad thing, but a different dynamic from fully domestic dogs.

Indeed, although it's interesting to see how even domestic dogs will form a pack when they get together.

 

[TheWolfshead]

See, I find this weird. Why would anyone want a dog they couldn't trust? It goes against the idea of the whole "man's (sic) best friend". I grew up with dogs and kept several myself and every single one I trusted with my life. One of them actually did save my life on one occasion. Not one of them ever bit or attacked anyone.

Dogs have been our close companions since humans lived in caves, and possibly contributed to our species' survival. But the aim of some breeders (and owners) of dogs like XL bullies seems to be to create dogs that go against that millennia-long companion relationship dogs have had with humans, turning them into nothing more than aggressive, psychotic and dangerous attack weapons.

I know what you mean, but this was an indigenous Canadian guy and I don't think he'd gone out of his way to acquire his wolf dogs, I think he'd rescued them or had them dumped on him by less responsible people. When he said he didn't trust them I think it was simply that he was well aware they were not fully domesticated.

 

[8ball]

Since domestic dog breeds have been produced - something that happened many thousands of years after humans and wolves began to cooperate - wolves have generally been driven away by humans. Pierotti and Fogg claim that this collaborative hunting was still in evidence in North America when Europeans arrived - it is attested to by traditional stories and by fragmentary evidence from past records. European settlers had very different ideas about the value of wolves.

Which would mean that Westerners went and seemingly bred out the most useful aspects of the dogs, rather than breeding them in.
It’s an attractive idea, but makes me think of that old “aquatic ape” business.

 

[8ball]

Indeed, although it's interesting to see how even domestic dogs will form a pack when they get together.

Though those are very differently structured to wolf packs. They are much more like a group of mates.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

I think you're applying your own relationship with your dogs to... all of human/dog history there. We have shared spaces with them, but the way we relate to them has undoubtedly changed in many, many ways (and probably gone back and forth according to a whole bunch of circumstances). Even here, now, you'll find a very different relationship between e.g a farm dog and a farmer to you and your dogs.

Willows mum slept outside and was often chained to the kenel. I keep telling her how lucky she is, but I'm not sure she listens.

 

[Plumdaff]

We don't currently have a dog, because we live in circumstances where it would be unfair to have a dog. But I spent my entire childhood and long portions of my adult life with them. The dogs included Staffies, lurchers, greyhounds and rescue mutts.

I loved all of them. But they were dogs which meant I could never 100 % trust them or assume I could predict their behaviour. And I needed therefore to try to ensure that I had thought through ways to be safe with those dogs, particularly in public. I think most owners do that even subconsciously. No one's perfect which is where training and routines and not having a 17 stone dog bred to be fighty come in handy.

By far the riskiest dog I've owned was the soppiest, most nervous rescue lurcher. But her nerves made her a bite risk in some situations and I had to be aware and adapt to that.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

All XL bullies should be neutered; then the breed could die off naturally. Pity we can't do the same with some of their moronic owners.

Just put them all on a vegan diet.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Just put them all on a vegan diet.

i don't think feeding vegans to dogs is acceptable...

 

[8ball]

i don't think feeding vegans to dogs is acceptable...

Would reduce the frequency of attacks, though.

(well, on non-vegans)

 

[girasol]

The Telegraph is behind a paywall for this article, which they originally published, but it's on the DM

HALF of all of Britain's XL Bully dogs descend from one inbred animal

Half of all of Britain's XL Bully dogs could 'descend from one inbred animal from the US named Killer Kimbo', genealogy research reveals.

www.dailymail.co.uk

HALF of all of Britain's XL Bully dogs 'descend from one inbred animal from the US named Killer Kimbo': How decades of inbreeding has created shallow gene pool of unstable fighting beasts.​

Only yesterday myself and granddaughter watched a teenage boy be walked by a beast of a dog (don't think it was an XL bully though, but looked similar in size, it was so strong the boy could barely hold it, the dog was literally taking this boy for a walk) and when it saw a child walk by with her mum the dog pulled its teen towards the child. The teen had to work hard to hold the dog back. The mum was scared enough to stop, and then move the side, and keep a distance. We were watching this from the car. We were afraid to get out of the car until it went away. Unfortunately it was going to the green at the front of my house which has been besieged by dog walkers since the lockdown and a lot of them don't even bother to pick up their dog shit.

Once they got to the green, we got out of the car, where it proceeded to have a shit and the boy didn't pick it up. Of course no one says anything because of the huge, scary dog. And that's the problem, these animals are used as weapons of intimidation as well as actual weapons, if necessary. How is it ok for them to even exist in an urban environment? We don't keep lions as pets!!! They should all be banned I think. Over a certain size, maybe. If it can really damage someone, it doesn't matter how docile it's supposed to be, then not allowed. End of. If you live in a farm in the middle of nowhere, then yeah, sure. But in cities??? It can be a sweetheart 99% of the time, but it only takes ONE incident, it only has to be spooked or feel threatened once, to kill someone.