'Vegan diets are healthier and safer for dogs' says The Guardian about University of Winchester survey

[two sheds]

Yes agreed. Not sure how many vegans are involved in it though.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The vast majority of human–dog relationships I see are a win-win situation. It is true that for some vegans, their ethical and political veganism holds that keeping pets is exploitative, but not for others, and I don't see anything that requires it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think dog breeding is definitely exploitative.

If it's being done for profit, yes, but even there it is quite possible to keep healthy, happy dogs that you breed to produce healthy, happy puppies that then find good homes. I don't think it's an inherently evil process, but as with most things, there are people who do it badly or unethically.

 

[gosub]

Less an endorsement of veganism for dogs (lol), and more an example of how one can eat anything as long as it's fortified with the right nutrients.

Heard the scientist interviewed on Jeremy Vine at time. Sounded more like your average hop bought dogs dinner has more crap in it than a value sausage

 

[xenon]

Yes it's bullying. It's trying to make someone feel guilty about something that brings them joy just because you don't agree with their beliefs.

Many vegans are so because they don't agree with killing and causing pain to animals. You're lumping all vegans together, trying to make them all feel guilty for something that doesn't actually go against their reasons for being vegan.

And why is buying a pet for companionship exploitative? How is giving dogs a good home, feeding them, giving them companionship in return exploitative? Getting a dog from a rescue centre rather than leaving them there on their own is exploitative? Get a grip.

Sorry I can't take this seriously.
Making someone feel guilty.

What about vegans making meat eaters feel guilty. As a meat eater I don't have an issue with that. I don't believe any vegans are really upset or feel bullied by the questions about pets I don't subscribe to the false idea that vegans are weak or drippy. Shame you're implying that yourself.


And if you don't get buying a dog for a pet is exploitative. Not evil, wicked immorral but still a bit exploitative then you're using a different dictionary to me...

 

[kabbes]

Exploited

 

[WouldBe]

And if you don't get buying a dog for a pet is exploitative. Not evil, wicked immorral but still a bit exploitative then you're using a different dictionary to me...

My husky is the laziest dog going. I'm half expecting her to want me to chew her food for her. I think it's me that's been exploited be her.

 

[gosub]

Was disappointed study didn't cover his w much time dogs on vegan diets spend telling other dogs their vegan

 

[two sheds]

Sorry I can't take this seriously.
Making someone feel guilty.

What about vegans making meat eaters feel guilty. As a meat eater I don't have an issue with that. I don't believe any vegans are really upset or feel bullied by the questions about pets I don't subscribe to the false idea that vegans are weak or drippy. Shame you're implying that yourself.


And if you don't get buying a dog for a pet is exploitative. Not evil, wicked immorral but still a bit exploitative then you're using a different dictionary to me...

I think I know why some are so against veganism. Vegans are quite correct in what they say - eating meat given the conditions that animals are kept in and how they are killed is inhumane. You know that, yet you keep eating meat. When vegans point this out you get angry because you know they're right but you can't admit it to yourself. That's why you have to try to get revenge by trying to make them feel guilty.

And where did I suggest that vegans are weak or drippy? You're the one bringing up those insults. I said "trying to make them feel guilty" not succeeding.

Which definition of 'exploit' are you using?
1. make productive use of : utilize exploiting your talents exploit your opponent's weakness 2. make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage exploiting migrant farm workers

Definition of EXPLOIT

deed, act; especially : a notable, memorable, or heroic act… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

I'd agree if you're using it in the first definition, but you'll have to explain how my owning a dog is mean or unfair and to my own advantage and not to my dog's.

 

[two sheds]

Was disappointed study didn't cover his w much time dogs on vegan diets spend telling other dogs their veg

I know. Socialists are just as bad - they're always telling people how bad capitalism is

 

[editor]

What about vegans making meat eaters feel guilty.

(((poor sensitive bullied xenon)))

 

[gosub]

I know. Socialists are just as bad - they're always telling people how bad capitalism is

I know. If I had a £ for every time I heard that I probably wouldn't worry about the limits of capitaism

 

[two sheds]

You're right but I do wonder how much it's balanced by we meat eaters going on about how bloody lovely bacon is (which it is, to be fair).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

My husky is the laziest dog going. I'm half expecting her to want me to chew her food for her. I think it's me that's been exploited be her.

Yeah, it's a two-way thing. It's not as straightforward as saying that humans domesticated dogs. Dogs domesticated humans as well, for instance by creating tricks and body language that humans would respond positively to. With other animals it may be different, but essentially, wild dogs came to live with humans quite willingly.

 

[two sheds]

And from my experience, cats are the exploitative ones.

 

[editor]

And from my experience, cats are the exploitative ones.

Yep.

Felis catus as a species has thus arisen through wildcats living closely with humans. However, this should not be regarded as ‘domestication’ in the same way that dogs and other animals have been domesticated. In general, cats have not undergone major changes during domestication and their form and behaviour remain very similar to that of their wildcat ancestors. They remain perfectly capable of surviving in the wild, and indeed many revert to a feral or wild existence.

The Origins Of Cats | International Cat Care

The domestic cat (Felis catus) is one of the most recently evolved species within the Felidae family. From three genera Panthera, Acinonyx and Felis.

icatcare.org

In a new comprehensive study of the spread of domesticated cats, DNA analysis suggests that cats lived for thousands of years alongside humans before they were domesticated. During that time, their genes have changed little from those of wildcats, apart from picking up one recent tweak: the distinctive stripes and dots of the tabby cat.

Cats Domesticated Themselves, Ancient DNA Shows

A comprehensive survey of cat genes suggests that even after felines wandered into our lives, they remained largely unchanged for thousands of years.

www.nationalgeographic.com

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Dogs have made a concerted effort to make themselves as human-friendly as possible.

Cats have made no effort whatever to fit in.

They expect us to fit in with them.

 

[two sheds]

Dogs have made a concerted effort to make themselves as human-friendly as possible.

Cats have made no effort whatever to fit in.

They expect us to fit in with them.

not just 'expect' it's a one-sided contest

 

[xenon]

I think I know why some are so against veganism. Vegans are quite correct in what they say - eating meat given the conditions that animals are kept in and how they are killed is inhumane. You know that, yet you keep eating meat. When vegans point this out you get angry because you know they're right but you can't admit it to yourself. That's why you have to try to get revenge by trying to make them feel guilty.

And where did I suggest that vegans are weak or drippy? You're the one bringing up those insults. I said "trying to make them feel guilty" not succeeding.

Which definition of 'exploit' are you using?
1. make productive use of : utilize exploiting your talents exploit your opponent's weakness 2. make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage exploiting migrant farm workers

Definition of EXPLOIT

deed, act; especially : a notable, memorable, or heroic act… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

I'd agree if you're using it in the first definition, but you'll have to explain how my owning a dog is mean or unfair and to my own advantage and not to my dog's.

Where have I been angry? I'm not throwing insults around talking about fragility or whatnot. Yet apparently I'm bullying people by asking a question. Which I hadn't even raised again until you mentioned it today.

bizarre.

 

[two sheds]

Where have I been angry? I'm not throwing insults around talking about fragility or whatnot. Yet apparently I'm bullying people by asking a question. Which I hadn't even raised again until you mentioned it today.

bizarre.

"Vegans shouldn't have pets" isn't a question. I'm puzzled though, if you didn't say it then why did you respond when I gave that quote?

But anyway - we can agree to differ.

 

[Funky_monks]

I think I know why some are so against veganism. Vegans are quite correct in what they say - eating meat given the conditions that animals are kept in and how they are killed is inhumane. You know that, yet you keep eating meat. When vegans point this out you get angry because you know they're right but you can't admit it to yourself. That's why you have to try to get revenge by trying to make them feel guilty.

I'm familiar with the process and how animals are kept (that I eat) and I completely reject that premise.
Vegans are welcome to their view, but I suspect (like most arbitrary groups of people), they are not a monothought clique. My ex girlfriend was (and still is) a vegan and seemingly had little problem with me both owning a grazing flock of sheep and also working in a broiler hatchery part time.

As for  most meat eaters, I suspect most couldn't care less and/or never really think about where their food comes from. The modern, supermarket system completely disconnects the consumer from the product.

 

[JimW]

View attachment 319567
Exploited

Even touting their pic about online in a shameless hunt for likes

 

[two sheds]

I'm familiar with the process and how animals are kept and I completely reject that premise.

Agree with the rest of what you said, but chickens being kept in crowded battery conditions, cows being bred to produce huge quantities of milk, videos of some abattoirs - particularly in the US?

I don't think meat production is necessarily a problem but really no cruelty in how the great majority of meat's produced now? I'd love to think it's true, I'd feel happier in consuming it,

 

[Pickman's model]

Agree with the rest of what you said, but chickens being kept in crowded battery conditions, cows being bred to produce huge quantities of milk, videos of some abattoirs - particularly in the US?

I don't think meat production is necessarily a problem but really no cruelty in how the great majority of meat's produced now? I'd love to think it's true, I'd feel happier in consuming it,

there's several obvious problems which have been covered exhaustively in other threads so although i'm happy, if asked, to provide evidence i offer here only the headings, namely the resources consumed by animals destined for slaughter, and the environmental degradation this can cause; the methane emissions, from cattle in particular, and the inescapable fact of cruelty within the terminal stage of meat production, if not throughout the life cycle of animals bred for slaughter: which last you refer to so well

 

[editor]

Agree with the rest of what you said, but chickens being kept in crowded battery conditions, cows being bred to produce huge quantities of milk, videos of some abattoirs - particularly in the US?

I don't think meat production is necessarily a problem but really no cruelty in how the great majority of meat's produced now? I'd love to think it's true, I'd feel happier in consuming it,

The vast majority of meat production takes place in industrial scale factory farms, stuffed full of inherent cruelty.

Ending factory farming

Factory Farming is everywhere. Globally, around 92 billion farm animals are factory farmed every year. These intensive systems put production above all else, creating vast quantities of seemingly cheap meat, milk and eggs.

www.ciwf.org.uk

Factory Farming Is Sweeping the U.K.

Two British reporters discuss their recent investigation tracking the rise of factory farming in the United Kingdom and its resemblance to American practices.

civileats.com

The myth of UK farming

Uncover the shocking reality: Over 70% of UK farm animals suffer in factory farms. Join the movement for change and make ethical, sustainable food choices.

www.worldanimalprotection.org.uk

 

[Funky_monks]

Agree with the rest of what you said, but chickens being kept in crowded battery conditions, cows being bred to produce huge quantities of milk, videos of some abattoirs - particularly in the US?

I don't think meat production is necessarily a problem but really no cruelty in how the great majority of meat's produced now? I'd love to think it's true, I'd feel happier in consuming it,

The food (I eat) - sorry, I edited in the brackets afterwards to clarify.
I don't eat cage eggs.
Dairying was one I was slightly dubious about before I took my current job, but we have a 300 cow dairy herd at work and now I've spent some time around it, I'm a bit more comfortable with it.

I don't eat imported food from the USA and I do spend time in UK abattoirs - I take my students on a couple of visits, I think it's important they see the process if they are going to produce the product.

I suppose I should add, since the usual cut and paste of opinion pieces has been chucked on this thread (are they permanently on someone's clipboard?). I'm basing my opinion on my actual, lived experience of the process, from birth to death. I can't be arsed to go round in the same circles that have been done to death on other threads.

 

[kabbes]

Even touting their pic about online in a shameless hunt for likes

Shameless and successful hunt for likes

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

My husky is the laziest dog going. I'm half expecting her to want me to chew her food for her. I think it's me that's been exploited be her.

TBF, Huskies are the primadonnas of the dog world.

 

[WouldBe]

TBF, Huskies are the primadonnas of the dog world.

If mine found out what a dog sled was she'd be the first in the back.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ok, so editor banned me from the other current vegan thread, the kind of thing he tends to do on these threads in a blatant misuse of his mod powers.

So I'll pop this here.

While I'm not narrowly interested in the 'we must be vegan to save the planet' line, I am interested in all viable alternatives. In the very narrow case of dog food, that probably includes entoculture, as it does for humans as well. Mussel farming is another case in point.

Ethics-wise, is it possible to be cruel to a mussel? Given the uncentralised nature of its nervous system, is there something it is like to be a mussel that means it can experience suffering? I would argue that this is very doubtful.

Meanwhile, there are quite a few advocates of mussel farming as a green solution. This study of mussel farming in the Baltic suggests that it can indeed be a very green way to farm. The study suggests that careful positioning of farms allows them to operate without measurable detrimental effects. And mussel farms can even have a net positive effect on the environment by reducing eutrophication where this is an issue.

Mussel farming can be very effective as a mitigation tool on a local scale since the effect from mussel filtration is immediate. Contrast this with land-based measures where effects often have large time lags. Moreover, legacy nutrient accumulation in the Baltic Sea does not make it possible to remove those nutrients through land- based measures. Thus, mussel farming and similar sea-based solutions are needed to effectively remove legacy nutrients from the water and reduce the eutrophication issues directly in the Baltic Sea.

https://www.submariner-network.eu/images/20190508_BBG_Factsheet_Environmental_impacts

As food, they're very good for you, mussels, and not too pricey. I'd encourage everyone to eat more of them. Maybe even dogs?