XL Bully dog - discussion

[StoneRoad]

I think part of an issue with making XL bullies a banned breed is that there are a lot in the UK already, which I don't think was the case so much for other banned breeds? That would be a very tricky starting point.

StoneRoad I think you answered your own question about the genetic tests! Not suitable to definitively identify a specific breed.

If there was such a test, and if it was actually accurate, that would sort of solve the "is it or isn't it" question.

 

[newme]

If there was such a test, and if it was actually accurate, that would sort of solve the "is it or isn't it" question.

Well American Bully dogs are a recognised breed by UK and US kennel clubs that can be tested for genetically. The XL component is based on size which is measurable. US have a separate classiciation for 4 types, separating XL from other types. UK only has one, adopting the US standard would make identification simple it would appear.

 

[Sweet FA]

Some figures...(I haven't checked them).

Man paid £63,000 for three German Shepherds during lockdown puppy surge

A man paid £63,000 for three German Shepherds as the lockdown puppy surge caused a hike in prices

www.dailyecho.co.uk

“A doctor came to us after buying two French bull dogs for £4,500 each, and wanted rid of them after two days as they were rough with his toddler – it is madness.

“Dogs were being bred season after season resulting in the animals becoming weak and producing very poor and unhealthy litters.

“This issue was so out of control in the pandemic that local councils and the government were unable to properly regulate the problem – so many of these dogs have come from unlicenced breeders.

“Councils have the ability to shut down licensed breeders but when people are breeding at home, there is no regulation. People are still getting away with this now – making £1,200 per puppy.”

As a result of lockdown, there are now five million more dogs in the UK than before the pandemic, according to SCAR.

 

[kebabking]

Why is there so much pearl clutching at the idea of 'looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck'?

If the problem is large, aggressive dogs with a spectrum of physical characteristics and usually owned by a twat, why is that overly problematic?

The problem is the dog, not the DNA sequence.

 

[platinumsage]

I think part of an issue with making XL bullies a banned breed is that there are a lot in the UK already, which I don't think was the case so much for other banned breeds? That would be a very tricky starting point.

Not really:

“a few thousand American Bully XLs”

compared to:

“At the time the legislation was being prepared, it was estimated that there were between 5,000 and 10,000 pit bull terriers in the country”

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If there was such a test, and if it was actually accurate, that would sort of solve the "is it or isn't it" question.

Yeah but there isn't and there isn't likely to be one soon either. Problem is that you're reverse-engineering from phenotype to genotype. Breeds are identified by phenotypic traits. The tests then perform statistical analyses to identify patterns in the gene sequences of dogs with particular phenotypes. There's a certain circularity to that process. And if your test comes back saying '50% chihuahua', say, that only means that it shares characteristic gene sequences with chihuahuas, as identified phenotypically in their sample database, in 50% of the relevant areas they look at. It doesn't mean the dog has any chihuahua ancestry necessarily. It also doesn't necessarily mean that your dog looks anything like a chihuahua, either. Same thing applies to DNA tests of humans that come back '16% Irish', or whatever.

 

[likesfish]

they have killed people about 2 deaths for every thousand bully's in the UK
so it's low risk but there's only a few thousand in the country.
You really need to be an expert with these and a kennel owner died at the hands of one the police had him looking after since they seized it.

my cocker spaniel is mostly annoying to me but it's very unlikely to Savage anyone but even if it did it's unlikely to kill something that's 8 Stone is quite capable of killing that's the diffrence.

 

[8ball]

Yeah but there isn't and there isn't likely to be one soon either. Problem is that you're reverse-engineering from phenotype to genotype. Breeds are identified by phenotypic traits. The tests then perform statistical analyses to identify patterns in the sequences of dogs with particular phenotypes. There's a certain circularity to that process. And if your test comes back saying '50% chihuahua', say, that only means that it shares characteristic gene sequences with chihuahuas, as identified phenotypically in their sample database, in 50% of the relevant areas they look at. It doesn't mean the dog has any chihuahua ancestry necessarily. Same thing applies to DNA tests of humans that come back '16% Irish', or whatever.

LOOK FOR XL BULLY GENE!!

IF IT XL BULLY GENE, KILL OWNER AND FINE DOG!!

IT NOT ROCKET SCIENTS!!

 

[quimcunx]

There seems to be semi sensible discussion on stefs packed lunch just now if anyone is interested.

 

[newme]

There seems to be semi sensible discussion on stefs packed lunch just now if anyone is interested.

The what now?

 

[quimcunx]

A programme on channel 4 called stefs packed lunch. Or maybe steph's.

 

[8ball]

A programme on channel 4 called stefs packed lunch. Or maybe steph's.

I try to avoid Channel 4 generally.

Is it any good (the programme, not the channel)?

 

[quimcunx]

No idea. I've never watched it. I just lingered on it a moment while passing through because someone was explaing stuff about the issues being discussed here.

 

[kabbes]

A tonne of legislation is already based on judgement, whether expert or otherwise. Show me the measurement of a hate crime. Explain to me the scientific breakdown of defamation. Reveal the genetic taxonomy of tax avoidance. And don’t get me started on planning law. We’re very used to the idea of laws being based on what the common man on the Clapham omnibus would expect or think. There’s no need for dog laws to be especially rigorous in this regard.

 

[Callie]

If there was such a test, and if it was actually accurate, that would sort of solve the "is it or isn't it" question.

Cloud cuckoo land I think. Who would pay for this testing anyway? It's not cheap!

And although you 'might' be able to identify an XL bully from a genetic test what then? Say you exterminate them all in the UK. The issue just moved to another dog breed. And infinitum.

 

[Callie]

Well American Bully dogs are a recognised breed by UK and US kennel clubs that can be tested for genetically. The XL component is based on size which is measurable. US have a separate classiciation for 4 types, separating XL from other types. UK only has one, adopting the US standard would make identification simple it would appear.

Who would pay for the testing?!

 

[Callie]

Not really:

“a few thousand American Bully XLs”

compared to:

“At the time the legislation was being prepared, it was estimated that there were between 5,000 and 10,000 pit bull terriers in the country”

I can't get your first link to work. Be interested how the data is collated. Facebook and nextdoor again

 

[platinumsage]

I've been reading newspaper archives around the introduction the Dangerous Dog Act. It seems a majority of dog attacks on children prior to the ban were by pitbulls, but this plummeted to almost none within a couple of years. It was very effective.

The Dangerous Dog Act was labelled as flawed legislation by campaigners principally because a) lots of public money spent on keeping seized dogs in kennels prior to court cases (£10 million omg), b) lots of public money spent on legal aid for people trying to stop their dogs being destroyed, c) a minority of seized dogs returned after it being determined they weren't a banned type, d) high-profile cases of a lovable pitbull with a soppy name being unjustly kept on "death row".

 

[8ball]

A tonne of legislation is already based on judgement, whether expert or otherwise. Show me the measurement of a hate crime. Explain to me the scientific breakdown of defamation. Reveal the genetic taxonomy of tax avoidance. And don’t get me started on planning law.

What is Bully XL?
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet
It is not hand or foot
Nor sheep nor duck
But if it wilt walk like Bully XL
And talk like Bully XL
And quack like duck
I take thee at thy word, Suella
For thine competence shineth bright
O’er U75’s hallowed halls

 

[platinumsage]

I can't get your first link to work. Be interested how the data is collated. Facebook and nextdoor again

Fixed.

No idea where the data came from. If you think there are more than "thousands" and this supports your point that the ban would be very tricky to implement comapred to the pitbull ban, then feel free to offer some evidence.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not really:

“a few thousand American Bully XLs”

compared to:

“At the time the legislation was being prepared, it was estimated that there were between 5,000 and 10,000 pit bull terriers in the country”

Viscount Astor, at the time a hereditary Tory peer. Basically everything wrong about him. But he talks a lot of sense in his reply.

As the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey, reminded us, it is important not to forget the anxiety which motivated this legislation. The attacks which had occurred underlined the presence of—and the threat from—fighting dogs in this country. We took the view—and I believe there was resounding support for it—that such animals have no place in our society. Breeding them is cruel to the dogs themselves, as well as to anyone (man or beast) who may have the misfortune to get in their way. Vigorous action was needed.

We could, broadly, have decided to go in one of two directions. One would have been to seek the immediate destruction of all such animals, to end the problem once and for all. But we chose instead the more compassionate approach: existing animals would be allowed to remain alive, provided that they were neutered and kept under strictly prescribed controls. For that policy to be effective, it was necessary to have tough sanctions on those who ignored the specified controls, and a stringent registration and marking system. There had to be no possibility of pit bull types being perpetuated. The noble Baroness, Lady Wharton, agreed that fighting dogs must not be bred.

This sounds about right to me.

 

[newme]

Who would pay for the testing?!

Absolutely no idea, someone just asked if it was possible and I went on a Google search rabbit hole as I wanted to know.
In theory a lot of people already pay for testing a lot when it's for pure breeds or whatever as thats why it exists so people can sell them elsewhere as whatever breed or bloodline.

I suspect those breeding dogs for sale on Facebook or whatever aren't exactly caring a great deal about getting a UK kennels certificate or whatever it is. Nor is anyone who has one going to think hmmm let's pay idk £100 or whatever it is so that my dog can then be presumably killed.

 

[Callie]

Fixed.

No idea where the data came from. If you think there are more than "thousands" and this supports your point that the ban would be very tricky to implement comapred to the pitbull ban, then feel free to offer some evidence.

Thanks. I've actually got no idea on numbers. I can't even see the stated figure in that article.... too much words!!!

I just don't see how there would be an accurate record so question stated numbers!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Absolutely no idea, someone just asked if it was possible and I went on a Google search rabbit hole as I wanted to know.
In theory a lot of people already pay for testing a lot when it's for pure breeds or whatever as thats why it exists so people can sell them elsewhere as whatever breed or bloodline.

I suspect those breeding dogs for sale on Facebook or whatever aren't exactly caring a great deal about getting a UK kennels certificate or whatever it is. Nor is anyone who has one going to think hmmm let's pay idk £100 or whatever it is so that my dog can then be presumably killed.

A lot of people pay for testing and testing websites make grand claims about their accuracy. Those claims don't really stand up, though. Genetic testing for breeds of dogs is at best extremely imperfect.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Thanks. I've actually got no idea on numbers. I can't even see the stated figure in that article.... too much words!!!

I just don't see how there would be an accurate record so question stated numbers!

It is in there. It's in Baron Lord High and Mighty Astor's reply.

At the time the legislation was being prepared, it was estimated that there were between 5,000 and 10,000 pit bull terriers in the country. In the event, over 8,000 dogs were notified to the police and the index of exempted dogs. Some 5,300 certificates have been issued of which 5,000 are currently valid.

 

[newme]

A lot of people pay for testing and testing websites make grand claims about their accuracy. Those claims don't really stand up, though. Genetic testing for breeds of dogs is at best extremely imperfect.

Yeh dogs have always been a bit of an outlier thinking about it and how they got bred for different purposes all over. Combine this and that and it turns out a lot differently. Have a border collie/corgi mix so he's a half the energy and leg length of a collie lol. Dogs are the brassica of the animal world.

 

[Callie]

littlebabyjesus
No sorry fron the guardian article re XL bullies!

 

[Callie]

As a side note can we half cut off the ears of the owners of these dogs that have had them cropped? Please?

 

[maomao]

They're rather intimidating dogs even when they're not ripping small children to pieces. A woman who lives near us has one, was exercising it off the lead and publically berated my wife for 'teaching kids to be scared of dogs' when she took the long way round with the kids to avoid it. I've been bitten by dogs twice, am nervous around them and reckon my right to walk the streets unintimidated trumps others' right to walk around with 70 kilos of barely contained muscle and teeth. I'd be happy to see a ban and am unconcerned about the niceties of proving breeds. Err on the side of caution, not only will it prevent deaths it will hopefully make the kind of intimidating bullies that owe these things a little less capable of intimidation.

 

[newme]

As a side note can we half cut off the ears of the owners of these dogs that have had them cropped? Please?

Definitely, just make sure they were the one responsible first! Seen dogs in rescue places with them so could actually be someone who had nothing to do with it. Neighbour got a dog with a cropped tail this way and had a few people kick off at them about it when they had nothing to do with it.