What Kind of Socialism do you want?
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The Black Hand
Unclean
Why? I am quite happy with this formulation;
It hasn't broken out of the leftist ghetto - it IS part of the ghetto. There go it alone thing is just a new way of being vanguardist 'We're small and we know we are'. The other huge contradiction that I have problems with is that the working class never called them in as saviours, and to say that 'all other politics is the middle class left - we must start again' is pure rubbish. The working class (contrary to their formulation) was not invited to their autopsy, in fact it hasn't died at all!! Interesting working class politics in fact has been in many interesting places, and not once with the IWCA.
It hasn't broken out of the leftist ghetto - it IS part of the ghetto. There go it alone thing is just a new way of being vanguardist 'We're small and we know we are'. The other huge contradiction that I have problems with is that the working class never called them in as saviours, and to say that 'all other politics is the middle class left - we must start again' is pure rubbish. The working class (contrary to their formulation) was not invited to their autopsy, in fact it hasn't died at all!! Interesting working class politics in fact has been in many interesting places, and not once with the IWCA.
The Black Hand
Unclean
Too many to mention
Ones I have bigged up here include but are not limited to; the Bristolian, Bristol Radical History Group, the IWW, The Right to protest conference, the campaign against criminalising communities, The North Eastern Federation of Anarchist communists, Wombles, Tute Bianche, Disobedienti, Federazione dei Communisti Anarchici, Autonomy and Solidarity, Social Justice, Sivanandan - Institute of Race Relations, NUM, FBU, GMB, T & G, Capital and Class, Historical Materialism, Marxism and the New world order conference, Ian Bone, Antonio Gramsci, Antonio Negri
Peter Linebaugh, http://contemporary-anarchist.blogspot.com/ Palestinian solidarity, Indigenous North American struggles, North East labour History, Socialist history society, various socialist journals, Friends of Nechayev, European group for the study of Deviance and social control, No more prison...
There's a lot more besides too.
Ones I have bigged up here include but are not limited to; the Bristolian, Bristol Radical History Group, the IWW, The Right to protest conference, the campaign against criminalising communities, The North Eastern Federation of Anarchist communists, Wombles, Tute Bianche, Disobedienti, Federazione dei Communisti Anarchici, Autonomy and Solidarity, Social Justice, Sivanandan - Institute of Race Relations, NUM, FBU, GMB, T & G, Capital and Class, Historical Materialism, Marxism and the New world order conference, Ian Bone, Antonio Gramsci, Antonio Negri
Peter Linebaugh, http://contemporary-anarchist.blogspot.com/ Palestinian solidarity, Indigenous North American struggles, North East labour History, Socialist history society, various socialist journals, Friends of Nechayev, European group for the study of Deviance and social control, No more prison...There's a lot more besides too.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Not the working class then?
The Black Hand
Unclean
They are the working class dipstick.torres said:
Certainly not the IWCA btw...
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Course they are luv, names and groups, stuff you've found on the internet. Stuff you like. That's what the w/c is to you today.
The Black Hand
Unclean
torres said:
Here petulent child - answer this which youu were asked before;
"Your ultra left '5 yr plan' will get you precisely nowhere with your arrogant opinions. You have achieved nothing in the last 5 years, and will acheive nothing in the next 5. "
Edit to add; you are forgetting basic marxist theory, the distinction between the class in itself and the class for itself...
It's really hard to see where you are coming from at all infact.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
More of a statement really. Wouldn't you say?
Do you even know what you mean when you say things like 'Your ultra left '5 yr plan'
Do you even know what you mean when you say things like 'Your ultra left '5 yr plan'
The Black Hand
Unclean
Do you seriously think the IWCA has acheived more than the T & G for people?mk12 said:
The Black Hand
Unclean
torres said:
DO you even have a brain? Wanker.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
OK. Have it your way attica.
The Black Hand
Unclean
torres said:
The '5 yr plan' was your lack of effective politics for the last 5 years, and the next 5.... After 20 years the IWCa must be dead...
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Wow, you really have lost the plot haven't you? Class struggle is everywhere except the struggles engaged in by a group call the Independent working class association and their battles to recompose a confident local w/c. No, the real struggle is uni dons and their historical re-enaction societies. Grow up lad. You're underminingyour own argument with every pointless attack on the IWCA.
The Black Hand
Unclean
mk12 said:
Paraphrasing Vaneigem - 'those who talk about revolution without fun are talking with a corpse in their mouth'.
Actually the wombles are like that parrot on Monty Python. 'it is a dead parott'... Or are they hibernating? WHo knows? you had better find out.
The Black Hand
Unclean
torres said:
No - just you dipstick. There are struggles going on in many places, all the time as you said, the very minor and irrelevant IWCA struggles occur haphazardly and not all the time in their areas, infact, struggle in their areas (wot is it, 3 areas?) is the exception rather than the rule. The class struggle does not hinge on what the IWCA does, far from it in fact. The next cycle of struggle will not come from them so you've backed the wrong horse pal
The Black Hand
Unclean
mk12 said:
Yawns then smiles at your niavity and stupidity, shakes head, smiles. Can't be bothered with you now. L8r.butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Attica said:No - just you dipstick. There are struggles going on in many places, all the time as you said, the very minor and irrelevant IWCA struggles occur haphazardly and not all the time in their areas, infact, struggle in their areas (wot is it, 3 areas?) is the exception rather than the rule. The class struggle does not hinge on what the IWCA does, far from it in fact. The next cycle of struggle will not come from them so you've backed the wrong horse pal
You are the only person to have mentioned the IWCA on this thread, or at least to have freaked out about them. And certainly no one has argued that anything hinges on them. You however have gave an odd list of mainly instituitonal groups and have told us that this is where interesting w/c politics is happening - i.e at a place one remove at least from the w/c, whilst also telling us that these one-remove groups 'are the working class'. You really do need to think this shit through.
Attica said:
I don't think this is marxist theory at all, basic or otherwise. I believe marx once talked about the class in itself when refering to the early stages of industrialisation when the working class was still forming. The fact that the working class has now formed means that it is 'for itself' by definition. That is unless we now live in a classless society - cf RCP/LM, I think this was exactly their formulation if I remember correctly. They were/are consistent at least.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Attica said:
See you later class tr8r
i might have mentionned them too! i ususually do!
i think attica is alowing his personal dislike of individuals to blind him as to what IWCA are about in theory and have acheived to an extent in oxford ( and sadly oxford alone) ..
that is they have gone a large way to 'destrying P olitics ( with a big P) .. and trying to recreate p olitics, with a small p, from the base .. i am struggling with why Attica disagrees with this strategy .. i suspect it is because he doe snot belive what he seees on the tin and tahtthey are just the same old RA. ignore this . lookk at teh trajectory which is pretty amazing for any left group orpolitical group .. who normally go to the right ( RCP-LM-IoI)
however attica point that this strategy is not sweeping the country, and why, needs to be addressed too
i think attica is alowing his personal dislike of individuals to blind him as to what IWCA are about in theory and have acheived to an extent in oxford ( and sadly oxford alone) ..
that is they have gone a large way to 'destrying P olitics ( with a big P) .. and trying to recreate p olitics, with a small p, from the base .. i am struggling with why Attica disagrees with this strategy .. i suspect it is because he doe snot belive what he seees on the tin and tahtthey are just the same old RA. ignore this . lookk at teh trajectory which is pretty amazing for any left group orpolitical group .. who normally go to the right ( RCP-LM-IoI)
however attica point that this strategy is not sweeping the country, and why, needs to be addressed too
The Black Hand
Unclean
torres said:
Coward.
The Black Hand
Unclean
torres said:
I have, and you're the one talking shite... They are the working class - warts an' all, the manifestations of the 'for itself'... I did the class in itself stuff when I was growing up 20 yrs ago and more ago, I don't need to be told to go 'back to the class' like a stale old 1960's IS record. I've been there, and I really don't want to wear a donkey jacket and mingle (says he from an old mining town)... What I mean by this is that it is quiant that the IWCA have theoretically discovered working class formation politics, the rest of us have been rethinking and doing for far longer than that though
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You're above the class struggle darling!
The Black Hand
Unclean
IWW NUMmk12 said:
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