What Kind of Socialism do you want?

[The Black Hand]

You're above the class struggle darling!

And you don't know what the class struggle is. You me a dark alley. I'm waiting and have been for a while to sort this out...

 

[butchersapron]

Really? Bring it on fatso You can barely walk!

 

[The Black Hand]

Really? Bring it on fatso You can barely walk!

You're dogmeat pal

 

[Jean-Luc]

That is quite interesting. Perhaps you could explain your ideas more fully. You don't think 1917 had anything to do with Socialism? What about the Bolsheviks or the Mensheviks ?
Could you point out WHO you do think has something to do with Socialism?
What are you ideas on Socialism?

I see "socialism" as what it originally meant to those who invented the word (Robert Owen and the Owenites): a "co-operative commonwealth", that is, a society where the means for producing things are owned in common and we cooperate to produce what we need. Or, to go back a further 200 years, what Gerrard Winstanley and the Diggers called a society where there would "be no buying and selling, no fairs nor markets, but the whole Earth shall be a common treasury for every man".
That was the idea of socialism inherited by later revolutionaries such as Marx, Kropotkin, etc. Unfortunately in the last century the word came to be associated with the idea of government ownership and a government-run economy, something more accurately called "state capitalism". That's what the Labour Party tried and what the Bolsheviks tried in Russia. Both failed. What we need to do is to get back to the original idea of socialism.

 

[Knotted]

What I mean by this is that it is quiant that the IWCA have theoretically discovered working class formation politics, the rest of us have been rethinking and doing for far longer than that though

I don't particularly want to bicker with you but I'm interested in what you call "working class formation politics". I've never heard of this before, can you provide a quick summary of what it is? Any links would be good.

 

[118118]

Yes mk12, you'd better find out who the wombles are, or attica will come and get you

This may involve him shouting "you haven't got a clue" at you and very little more

 

[118118]

I mean, talk about 'wevolutionary'. Attica, your act seems to consist of you
A) claiming that you are more revolutionary than someone
and then B) daring them to be to as revolutionary as you.

Talk about surreal behaviour.

 

[october_lost]

October - I think you are unbelievably hopeful. How do you see the current 'workers themselves' achieving this feat, and where?

Liberation you mean? Evidently this would come through their own militancy and co-operation until they have the capacity to take over production themselves. So my strategy is in no way linear but I can draw inspiration from the growth in the IWW, SF's industrial network and some of the positive stuff happening locally. Were not the end result by no means, but part of the process.....

 

[Louis MacNeice]

There's no translation necessary.

Cheers - nino_savatte

There's certainly no need for the . Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else; some explanation would be appreciated.

Louis MacNeice

p.s. apologies for the delay in getting back to you on this, but have been away for a very soggy weekend's camping so wasn't on line for a few days.

 

[nino_savatte]

There's certainly no need for the . Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else; some explanation would be appreciated.

Louis MacNeice

p.s. apologies for the delay in getting back to you on this, but have been away for a very soggy weekend's camping so wasn't on line for a few days.

I'm not "confusing" you with anybody. What makes you say that? Is it because I used the ? I certainly felt that there was a need to use it given your insistence that I restate the bleedin' obvious.

 

[The Black Hand]

I mean, talk about 'wevolutionary'. Attica, your act seems to consist of you
A) claiming that you are more revolutionary than someone
and then B) daring them to be to as revolutionary as you.

Talk about surreal behaviour.

Wubbish Wwanker. I have never claimed to be more revolutionary - that turgid turd torsser came having a dig so i dug back...

 

[The Black Hand]

Here's Howard Zinn from a few years ago;

"The day will come when their power--held together by money and lies and violence--will fall, as racial segregation fell, as the twelve-hour day fell, as the subordination of women fell, as apartheid in South Africa fell, as the Berlin Wall fell, as dictators in Spain and Portugal and the Philippines fell, because people would not give up. The powerless, organized, become powerful. Minorities, persistent, grow into majorities. We don't know when it will happen, but the day must come when there will be justice for women, for people of color, for the poor of the world, when the stupidity of war will be recognized, and military machines dismantled, and the world made safe for children. It is up to us to keep that hope alive, to keep democracy alive"

You're having a go at him too torrid....

 

[butchersapron]

Until then we can't trust them

You can apporpriate any voice or struggle you like. Go for it.

 

[october_lost]

Since were quoting peeps, I always loved this as an illustration of what socialism and political activity should engender...

Meaningful action, for revolutionaries, is whatever increases the confidence, the autonomy, the initiative, the participation, the solidarity, the equalitarian tendencies and the self-activity of the masses and whatever assists in their demystification. Sterile and harmful action is whatever reinforces the passivity of the masses, their apathy, their cynicism, their differentiation through hierarchy, their alienation, their reliance on others to do things for them and the degree to which they can therefore be manipulated by others - even by those allegedly acting on their behalf.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I'm not "confusing" you with anybody. What makes you say that? Is it because I used the ? I certainly felt that there was a need to use it given your insistence that I restate the bleedin' obvious.

You're still not making sense let alone being 'bleedin obvious'...what is the gang you're refering to and lumping me in with?

Louis MacNeice

 

[The Black Hand]

Until then we can't trust them

You can apporpriate any voice or struggle you like. Go for it.

You don't get it do you. THe bit where Zinn says 'lies' is alluding to the media. You have not presented any analysis of the media, right wing groups and working class involvement in them have you. You cannot account for ideas which are not utopian like your own.

I wrote this a while ago - its still true;

tores in "the self nominated in-crowd, and ideas which don't fit the world view of this group are attacked, especially if they challenge the dominant basis of their culture, their epistemology, their ontology, and their theories of class. It is noticeable that rather than engage in politics about the future, ie. A discussion of praxis, the 'so-called intellectuals' have chosen to drag up irrelevances, rather than engage in debate which leaves their 'do-nothing' politics exposed.

Their sterile purist canonical angst aflutters, their heart rages with apoplexy, and reveals their 'holier than thou' superiority, and the absence of serious praxis that could challenge their self selected and self serving role as the carrier of the apostolic tablets of stone. In short – that challenges them and their 'historic mission', if truth is told though, the working class doesn't need them and has shown it, though they need the working class.

Gelid Personalisation Obscures the need for Practical Politics
The Ad Hominem debate is a poor ersatz for an inclusive politics that can germinate in the fertile zones of conflict, may a thousand flowers bloom as this popular politics is both the means and ends of the class war. It is across the manifold gradations of working class ness, and the zones of transition, both backwards and forwards, into middle class ness, that a realistic class war politics needs to be able to both have a radical criticism of the present and raise questions for people about the long term future.

Away with rank - Away with rank mediocre performances too

Necessary diversity is not an optional add on to a politics of progress in the early 21st century, it is the very means by which an inclusive and growing movement can create itself. Beyond old forms, including labels, of the class struggle, and carrying some similarities to previous politics of the united and popular fronts. Equivocation over class within the capacious popular movement to come does not mean that the goal of working class emancipation is any less, rather that the movement must decide its own attitude as we go along on the one road beyond class into the revolutionary future. This necessarily means the elimination of all classes and the realisation of common humanity via difference in the new zones of the commons. We choose a living extravagant zeitgeist, just as William Morris et al did.

 

[The Black Hand]

While your interpretation of what Attica said is a possibly accuarate assessment of it's meaning, it's not exactly the only interpretation you could make (although given the animus in your post, perhaps the most likely one) is it?

He could also have meant "some people are brainwashed, we'll be taking a chance but so what?"

It seems to me that you're going out of your way to imply "vanguardism" on Attica's part. Why?

VP I notice you are still waiting for the ill mannered ignoramous to respond.

 

[butchersapron]

Skillz. I put up a lengthy reply, you even replied to it yourself.

 

[The Black Hand]

Skillz. I put up a lengthy reply, you even replied to it yourself.

You've just done what you always do -which is ignore the real questions from the first post at the top of the page and go for the second one (or some other combination from diff eg's)....

 

[butchersapron]

Nope, i directly answered the question asked of me and you now feel sheepish and daft for saying that i hadn't. What on earth is wrong with people that can't admit they've made the slightest mistake. It doesn't help anyone. You're not going to implode you know.

 

[The Black Hand]

Nope, i directly answered the question asked of me and you now feel sheepish and daft for saying that i hadn't. What on earth is wrong with people that can't admit they've made the slightest mistake. It doesn't help anyone. You're not going to implode you know.

Holds up mirror.

 

[The Black Hand]

Here - i said this earlier too;

You do talk rubbish Torres, on the one hand the people know best, and here you say I do not know what I have said [as one of the people]. It is you with the contradictory logic.

As for me being a disguised Leninist I would say you're having a larf - but that does you too much credit.

If you want to talk politics any further I suggest you describe what politics you have or have done, or have some real points, otherwise my replies are going to get shorter and shorter and ruder and ruder.

 

[butchersapron]

You can preen all you like. You an't looking any prettier This latest is just a pointless spat based on your missing my post. It's meaningless and i'm not bothering with it.

 

[The Black Hand]

You can preen all you like. You an't looking any prettier This latest is just a pointless spat based on your missing my post. It's meaningless and i'm not bothering with it.

You've always looked very ugly praxis ducker. When you actually nail your colours to the mast and write something or do something of your own let me know. (btw start by answering the point at the top).

 

[Tom A]

As I said previously, I would like a kind of socialism that happens to improve the lot of all people. Not that this is likely to happen when people are having pathetic arguments over pointless details on the internet...

 

[newbie]

meanwhile, as you students and lecturers and that bicker about what's good for the working class, the workers themselves are buying a new telly or a designer bag on ebay, booking their ryanair to the Med or looking forward to Big Bro'. Not that what anyone outside the history and social science departments actually does has much bearing on these worthy squabbles....

 

[Tom A]

meanwhile, as you students and lecturers and that bicker about what's good for the working class, the workers themselves are buying a new telly or a designer bag on ebay, booking their ryanair to the Med or looking forward to Big Bro'. Not that what anyone outside the history and social science departments actually does has much bearing on these worthy squabbles....

I don't bicker about what's good for the working class. I would rather let the working class decide what's good for the working class, which incidentally, I (economically speaking) just happen to be a member of...

 

[nino_savatte]

i might have mentionned them too! i ususually do!

i think attica is alowing his personal dislike of individuals to blind him as to what IWCA are about in theory and have acheived to an extent in oxford ( and sadly oxford alone) ..

that is they have gone a large way to 'destrying P olitics ( with a big P) .. and trying to recreate p olitics, with a small p, from the base .. i am struggling with why Attica disagrees with this strategy .. i suspect it is because he doe snot belive what he seees on the tin and tahtthey are just the same old RA. ignore this . lookk at teh trajectory which is pretty amazing for any left group orpolitical group .. who normally go to the right ( RCP-LM-IoI)

however attica point that this strategy is not sweeping the country, and why, needs to be addressed too

The RCP were never "left" in mine nor anyone else's mind. They often referred to themselves as "Right wing Marxists". Were you a supporter, durutti? Only Furedi's inner circle were members.

 

[nino_savatte]

meanwhile, as you students and lecturers and that bicker about what's good for the working class, the workers themselves are buying a new telly or a designer bag on ebay, booking their ryanair to the Med or looking forward to Big Bro'. Not that what anyone outside the history and social science departments actually does has much bearing on these worthy squabbles....

You say that but there are many others telling the w/c what's "good for them", not just "students and lecturers"; there's the media, for example and of course, the state.

So sectarian left wing groups who squabble over minute points of doctrine are more worthy than history and social science departments? Get out of here!

 

[newbie]

not really, I was just teasing those who are posting here rather than writing or marking footnoted essays about the working class. That the squabbles are sectarian in nature just makes them more delicious

Because, of course, the problem is that if you listen to what the working class has been saying for the last decade or two about what's good for it and what's not, then it's apparent there's little or no appetite for socialism, communism or any other sort of political collective utopia.

In the here and now there is quite obvious enthusiasm for individualistic materialism based on cheap commodities and consumer, not collective, 'rights' and remedies.

Arguments about 'praxis' (whatever that is) or what some dead bloke with a beard said a century or more ago come across more and more like angel on pinhead faith based abstractions as they continue to ignore that particular elephant sitting on the sofa. But that doesn't matter, what matters is that the various groupings jockey for position to lead the working class away from what it thinks it wants towards what it should want.