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What is wrong with government borrowing?

Bit I've bolded - I wish but that's just not going to happen.
Yeh someone in a back pain group I'm in has MS and they seem to have had way more hassle than is remotely necessary or idk, nice?
Seems bizarre to basically punish someone for having a health issue of any kind but it happens all the time. Just feels very disconnected from how it should be.
 
Just like using a credit card you have to pay it back ntil you reach a state where you owe so much money nobody will lend you anything!
Government borrowing and government debt is generally viewed as a bad thing, to be reduced as much as possible. Why is this?

When I studied Economics A level (admitedly about 40 years ago) I remember my teacher saying that it wasn't neccesarily bad, and could be good. If the government borrowed to fund say, public sector pay rises, or infrastructure projects or a scheme to create jobs in a deprived area, then this would boost the economy. Then they would recoup much of the borrowing in increased tax revenue and a reduction in welfare payments.
It's only bad when you have to pay it back!
 
Government borrowing and government debt is generally viewed as a bad thing, to be reduced as much as possible. Why is this?

When I studied Economics A level (admitedly about 40 years ago) I remember my teacher saying that it wasn't neccesarily bad, and could be good. If the government borrowed to fund say, public sector pay rises, or infrastructure projects or a scheme to create jobs in a deprived area, then this would boost the economy. Then they would recoup much of the borrowing in increased tax revenue and a reduction in welfare payments.

Once the metric of the health of an economy was a mixture of GDP per capita and balance of payments. Borrowing to fund infrastructure projects or any other form of investment that promotes economic activity and growth was therefore widely understood to be desirable. As Keynes put it "Anything that we can do, we can afford".

Under Thatcher and neo-liberalism, the metrics of GDP/balance of payments were dumped and replaced by inflation.

There was no longer a national economy, we were part of a global economy. Imports were good because they supplied cheap goods, capital was freed from controls and receipts from services would fund the state rather than basic productive industries.

Under the new orthodoxy borrowing was bad a) because it could increase spending and demand thereby potentially creating inflationary pressure and b) given the supremacy of the market under the new model, government policy was to be subjugated to the needs of the market. The needs of the market were determined to be tight controls on public spending, repayment of debt and austerity. Full employment, economic growth, ending poverty through work were no longer essential tasks for the state but merely matters for capital to decide upon.

However, too much of the current debt was not accrued through infrastructure spending. Some of it could not be forecast (covid) but almost all of it is due to the weaknesses of the domestic economy and long run economic stagnation and historically low levels of growth (and historically low levs of taxation of the rich) which means government cannot fund day to day spending.
 
I would have thought in many ways it is like a personal credit card. If you need something big and there's a plan for paying it back it's not that terrible but if you're using it to cover day today spending then you'll just end up in more debt.
 
Just like using a credit card you have to pay it back ntil you reach a state where you owe so much money nobody will lend you anything!

It's only bad when you have to pay it back!

Actually, credit card lenders hate customers who pay back their borrowing. These are "prime"customers and they are not profitable. They make their money from the next tier of customers, who are able to afford the regular minimum payments but who cannot afford to pay back the full debt. And also will not default. These are "sub prime." It was in the credit card world that I first encountered the term.
 
I can't "print" money whenever I like, because I don't have a central bank.

Actually you can. You can write IOUs. In the banking world, that's effectively what it is. A bank (any bank, not just a central bank) creates money whenever it applies a deposit to a customer account. A bank account is an IOU from the bank to its customer.
 
Actually you can. You can write IOUs. In the banking world, that's effectively what it is. A bank (any bank, not just a central bank) creates money whenever it applies a deposit to a customer account. A bank account is an IOU from the bank to its customer.
My IOU's don't put bread on my table nor clothes on my back. Furthermore, my IOUs are worthless compared to those of the banks. For example, I cannot go into a supermarket and hand the checkout person an IOU, nor can I put an IOU into a self-service checkout machine. I am not a bank. I stand by my point that public finances and domestic finances are not analogous. Thatcher used this faulty reasoning to convince the public to accept cuts to pubic services.
 
Actually, credit card lenders hate customers who pay back their borrowing. These are "prime"customers and they are not profitable. They make their money from the next tier of customers, who are able to afford the regular minimum payments but who cannot afford to pay back the full debt. And also will not default. These are "sub prime." It was in the credit card world that I first encountered the term.
Exactly, just as financialised capital/corporate investment/asset management dislike the notion of states operating without debt; they want to accumulate from their interest payments.
 
My IOU's don't put bread on my table nor clothes on my back.

That's true.

Equally, a bank's IOUs to its customers are liabilities to the bank and not assets it can spend. This point is widely misunderstood. A bank cannot create money that it is able to spend. Otherwise, the government would not have needed to bail out four of the major banks in 2008 - they could have bailed themselves out.
 
That's true.

Equally, a bank's IOUs to its customers are liabilities to the bank and not assets it can spend. This point is widely misunderstood. A bank cannot create money that it is able to spend. Otherwise, the government would not have needed to bail out four of the major banks in 2008 - they could have bailed themselves out.
Yes and no. Fractional reserve lending has a money multiplier effect, which really does create money. The bank cannot cover all of its liabilities and is relying on its depositors not asking for their money back all at the same time as they don't have it. The bank does spend money it doesn't have in a sense as it lends out the deposits. That is 'spending' effectively.
 
Yes and no. Fractional reserve lending has a money multiplier effect, which really does create money. The bank cannot cover all of its liabilities and is relying on its depositors not asking for their money back all at the same time as they don't have it. The bank does spend money it doesn't have in a sense as it lends out the deposits. That is 'spending' effectively.

Your point about lending out deposits refers to accounting operations on its own balance sheet. I think it's helpful to think about spending in the sense of being able to make payments outside its balance sheet, i.e. to other banks. In that sense the bank cannot create money to settle such transactions. It needs to rely on its own money at the central bank.

For example, a bank's customers will make payments from their deposits every day. In all cases, those payments will be settled by the bank using its own money in its settlement account at the central bank. That's the absolute constraint on the bank - if it doesn't have enough money in its settlement account to meet its depositors demands to make payments, it fails. Which is what happened to RBS in October 2008.

I believe that's what you are saying, yes?
 
Yes, certainly. A bank has to have the money to settle payments. But it has nowhere near as much money as is needed to settle all of its liabilities at any one time. Hence any bank is vulnerable to a run.

My point there is that the money multiplier effect really does create money - I can look at my savings account and see £1,000 in there, which is the amount I deposited, while someone else can look at their account and see the £900 they've just borrowed on the back of my £1,000. It's all fine so long as the cumulative behaviour of depositors is such that enough of them are happy to leave their money alone long enough for the debts to be repaid.
 
This obviously won't happen as there's no cream for the financial services sector which our whole economy is run for the benefit of. Instead, social housing rents will go up to pay bungs for the housing sector to do what was their job anyway.
My rent has gone up 10% the last two years, I appreciate its probably less than others have but this was wildly out versus previous changes.
 
My IOU's don't put bread on my table nor clothes on my back. Furthermore, my IOUs are worthless compared to those of the banks. For example, I cannot go into a supermarket and hand the checkout person an IOU, nor can I put an IOU into a self-service checkout machine. I am not a bank. I stand by my point that public finances and domestic finances are not analogous. Thatcher used this faulty reasoning to convince the public to accept cuts to pubic services.
No we were cap in hand to the WorldBank and IMF in the 70's and it was them calling for the UK to reduce the size of the public sector. Thatcher obliged. Our IOUs weren't putting bread on the table and the £ would have dunk further if was wasn't for the Sultan of Brunei propping up the £, most likely as part of Brunei's move towards independence
 
No we were cap in hand to the WorldBank and IMF in the 70's and it was them calling for the UK to reduce the size of the public sector. Thatcher obliged. Our IOUs weren't putting bread on the table and the £ would have dunk further if was wasn't for the Sultan of Brunei propping up the £, most likely as part of Brunei's move towards independence
Before Thatcher "obliged", Callaghan & Healy had been doing so for the best part of 3 years.
 
which means government cannot fund day to day spending.

Government could help considerably by funding local councils properly, its been a rain of going into administration, huge amounts missing, etc. My county decided to loan money to another, hows that the result of sensible policy. They had a deficit and it keeps getting larger. One dumbass MP pushed through a deal we very much disagreed with as a compliance department, it went through anyway. They folded the next day now owing us 200k, putting the entire programme of well over a decade at risk and pausing all new applications for over 6 months (I did the data for this, it went from hundreds of new jobs and other benefit a year to a much reduced number based on the older project still running). It was a bloody economic growth plan and we stopped growth based on some idiot interfering.

That said if they didn't have to pay for child and adult social care from the counties budget it would be fairer. People come retire to a place and suddenly somewhere they never paid for services before is on the hook for it. I've been involved in these contracts. One individual had such complex needs it took nearly £1m to meet the statutory requirements, for a year, yes they absolutely should have got everything. However underfunding councils then lumping them with huge expenses is just stupid. The fuck up of austerity when it made no sense and people voting with apparently no thought whatsoever.
 
No we were cap in hand to the WorldBank and IMF in the 70's and it was them calling for the UK to reduce the size of the public sector. Thatcher obliged. Our IOUs weren't putting bread on the table and the £ would have dunk further if was wasn't for the Sultan of Brunei propping up the £, most likely as part of Brunei's move towards independence
The IMF loan wasn't actually used and was paid back in full in 1979.
 
That's true.

Equally, a bank's IOUs to its customers are liabilities to the bank and not assets it can spend. This point is widely misunderstood. A bank cannot create money that it is able to spend. Otherwise, the government would not have needed to bail out four of the major banks in 2008 - they could have bailed themselves out.
Still, conflating public finances and domestic finances is a Thatcherite trick. The idea behind doing so is to convince the public that their interests are best served by cutting their own throats.
 
Still, conflating public finances and domestic finances is a Thatcherite trick. The idea behind doing so is to convince the public that their interests are best served by cutting their own throats.
Which is ironic given that Thatcher initially subscribed to the provably wrong theory of monetarism and managed to wreck the economy with it within record time. Britain was temporarily in thrall to a bunch of ideological extremists pushing crazy ideas. Nothing to do with the IMF by that point.

Chile needed a vicious dictator to push this mad experiment through. Somehow the UK allowed it through democratic pathways.
 
My instinct is to say “more education” for all on economics but I’m getting the feeling that even degree level economics is working the “Emperors new clothes” vibe

Is there any meaningful critical analysis of economics/economies being taught/engaged in anywhere which actually filters through and effects change in the current system
 
Which is ironic given that Thatcher initially subscribed to the provably wrong theory of monetarism and managed to wreck the economy with it within record time. Britain was temporarily in thrall to a bunch of ideological extremists pushing crazy ideas. Nothing to do with the IMF by that point.

Chile needed a vicious dictator to push this mad experiment through. Somehow the UK allowed it through democratic pathways.
It was Alan Walters, Thatcher's friend and adviser to Pinochet, who helped to introduce what we now call neoliberalism to Britain in 1981 when he became Thatcher's economic adviser to the dismay of Howe.
 
I studied economics at uni for a year. It still remains a complete mystery to me. A mate who is an academic tells me most of the stuff we learnt at uni is kind of outdated now.

Anyone remember the IS/LM curve? :eek:
 
My instinct is to say “more education” for all on economics but I’m getting the feeling that even degree level economics is working the “Emperors new clothes” vibe

Is there any meaningful critical analysis of economics/economies being taught/engaged in anywhere which actually filters through and effects change in the current system
I found this (American) helpful a couple of years ago - I don't really know enough about economics to judge but it seemed a good way of looking at things. Along the lines of Richard Murphy I think.
 
My instinct is to say “more education” for all on economics but I’m getting the feeling that even degree level economics is working the “Emperors new clothes” vibe

Is there any meaningful critical analysis of economics/economies being taught/engaged in anywhere which actually filters through and effects change in the current system
Cambridge economist Ha-Joon Chang is good, Economics: The User's Guide & 23 Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism. A clear, short introduction.

Government borrowing isn't as important as whether a state can borrow the money in their own currency, & what it's spending the capital on.
 
I started making notes on that model I posted above, first the conventional view:

1724495560042.png

Transactions in Private Sector (PS): businesses and corporations, families and foundations, state and local governments, etc. add up to the GDP (gross domestic product).

The Federal Government (FG) Dollars are SPENT to pay for public goods –weather forecasting, bridge repairs, Medicare services, etc.—and payments like social security, unemployment aid and food stamps.

The diagram shows that the Dollars in the Federal Government (FG) pot are obtained via TAXES and “BORROWING” through which the FG obtains Dollars by “selling” Treasury Bonds to the Private Sector.

The diagram gives the clear impression that the Private Sector somehow creates the U.S. Dollars we all use. The PS pot Dollars had to come from somewhere, right?—but the diagram shows no source other than the PS pot itself. This appears to constrain the number of Dollars that Congress can allow to flow into the FG pot, and this, of course, constrains the amount and kind of public goods and services.
A better model:

However, the Dollars that flow out of the FG pot to pay for public goods and services—either entitlement or discretionary spending—don’t just disappear into the right page margin after they are spent. They go somewhere. They are paid to somebody. And who might that be?


1724495780781.png
In fact—and when you think about it, it’s obvious—the Federal Government buys its public goods and services from the Private Sector. Aircraft carriers and submarines are built by Private Sector shipyards. Weather and GPS satellites are designed and built by private engineering laboratories. And while the space-launch facilities at NASA are a “public” enterprise, all the scientists and technicians who work there are private citizens.
 
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