Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Pickman's model]

Oh, hang on a minute, there's fucking big different between the two wars, it was the NATO side that started the illegal Iraqi war, here it's Russia that started the illegal war.

TC's hatred of NATO gives him a blind spot when it comes to this very simple fact.

Unlike you with your perfect vision I suppose

 

[maomao]

He wants an end to the war on Russia's terms.

The war could end tomorrow if Putin wanted it to. Just stop this shit and pull his troops out.

Ask TopCat if he thinks that should happen and why he's not advocating that action.

Demands for people posting in a conversation between a couple of dozen nobodies on the internet to 'advocate' things are pretty pathetic. I'd like the war to end as soon as possible and think that probably means places that were previously called Ukraine being called Russia. I think the roots of the war go much further back than 2022 or 2014 and the west is culpable in many respects. Does that make me a putin bot?

 

[kebabking]

I must say I've read the whole thread and don't remember a post by TopCat that was in support of Russia...

If a poster on another thread talked about how public money shouldn't be spent on specialist sexual violence teams in the police and CPS, how rape victims were just slags who made it up, how men and boys shouldn't be taught about consent, about how women shouldn't be taught about safety or self defence, about how women who wore anything other than a bin liner were asking for it, and how rape should - in sentencing and criminal record terms - be treated like shoplifting, do you think you'd need them to explicitly say 'rape is great' in order to guage their views, or do you think you'd be able to figure it out all by your yourself?

TC has said, in Ukrainian terms, all of those things.

The middle bit might be messy, but in the end, it's binary: either you believe that Ukraine - or any other state - has the right to decide for itself how it chooses to organise itself, and who it's friends are, or you don't.

Which would be an interesting road to take for anyone who shouts 'Iraq'...

 

[Silas Loom]

Demands for people posting in a conversation between a couple of dozen nobodies on the internet to 'advocate' things are pretty pathetic. I'd like the war to end as soon as possible and think that probably means places that were previously called Ukraine being called Russia. I think the roots of the war go much further back than 2022 or 2014 and the west is culpable in many respects. Does that make me a putin bot?

It makes you a Putin apologist, Turing tests notwithstanding.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It makes you a Putin sympathiser.

No it doesn't.

At some point, someone is going to have to speak to Putin (assuming he is still in power at that point) and ask him what he wants to end the war. A negotiation will need to take place. That doesn't mean the negotiators sympathise with Putin. They'll be people tasked with negotiating because that's how wars end.

 

[Pickman's model]

It makes you a Putin apologist, Turing tests notwithstanding.

Putin himself would recoil in horror from espousing many of the political positions you endorse

 

[Silas Loom]

No it doesn't.

At some point, someone is going to have to speak to Putin (assuming he is still in power at that point) and ask him what he wants to end the war. A negotiation will need to take place. That doesn't mean the negotiators sympathise with Putin. They'll be people tasked with negotiating because that's how wars end.

That’s what negotiators do. Are they normally recruited from the ranks of people who spend the whole war trotting out the aggressor’s talking points?

 

[Pickman's model]

If a poster on another thread talked about how public money shouldn't be spent on specialist sexual violence teams in the police and CPS, how rape victims were just slags who made it up, how men and boys shouldn't be taught about consent, about how women shouldn't be taught about safety or self defence, about how women who wore anything other than a bin liner were asking for it, and how rape should - in sentencing and criminal record terms - be treated like shoplifting, do you think you'd need them to explicitly say 'rape is great' in order to guage their views, or do you think you'd be able to figure it out all by your yourself?

TC has said, in Ukrainian terms, all of those things.

The middle bit might be messy, but in the end, it's binary: either you believe that Ukraine - or any other state - has the right to decide for itself how it chooses to organise itself, and who it's friends are, or you don't.

Which would be an interesting road to take for anyone who shouts 'Iraq'...

Not really, not to anyone for who the words sykes-picot mean anything

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

No it doesn't.

At some point, someone is going to have to speak to Putin (assuming he is still in power at that point) and ask him what he wants to end the war. A negotiation will need to take place. That doesn't mean the negotiators sympathise with Putin. They'll be people tasked with negotiating because that's how wars end.

He has stated repeatedly what it will take for him to end the war; Ukraine to become a client state of Russia, nothing less will do. Where to go from that position?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

He has stated repeatedly what it will take for him to end the war; Ukraine to become a client state of Russia, nothing less will do. Where to go from that position?

You negotiate. I'm not suggesting that negotiators should go into a room and give Putin everything he asks for.

As maomao suggested, that may well mean some bits of Ukraine becoming Russia. So what do you get from Putin in return for that? That's where the negotiation bit comes in.

 

[ska invita]

Demands for people posting in a conversation between a couple of dozen nobodies on the internet to 'advocate' things are pretty pathetic. I'd like the war to end as soon as possible and think that probably means places that were previously called Ukraine being called Russia. I think the roots of the war go much further back than 2022 or 2014 and the west is culpable in many respects. Does that make me a putin bot?

The position of most military analysts Ive heard

 

[maomao]

either you believe that Ukraine - or any other state - has the right to decide for itself how it chooses to organise itself, and who it's friends are, or you don't.

I don't believe in states as neat entities with single points of view. That's not some anarchist aspiration (I'm not an anarchist), it's an observation of what exists now. 44% of Ukrainians would like to negotiate with Russia. A small proportion of Ukrainians actually support Russia. Volunteers seem to have mostly dried up and military conscription is in effect. Scheduled elections haven't happened and military conscription is in effect. I'm not sure that what is being presented as the 'will of Ukraine' can meaningfully claim to be so.

As for rapists etc., I think there's more chance of them being prosecuted under a post-war peace and reconciliation comittee of some kind than a total Ukrainian victory, which seems a) unlikely and b) likely to result in a significantly larger and more destructive war.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

You negotiate. I'm not suggesting that negotiators should go into a room and give Putin everything he asks for.

As maomao suggested, that may well mean some bits of Ukraine becoming Russia. So what do you get from Putin in return for that? That's where the negotiation bit comes in.

You get the bombs to stop falling.

Assume, like Finland had to that Ukraine concedes the occupied lands as they stand today, that leaves all four regions he declared annexed as not totally part of Russia, so he's going to want land his army has not already taken. He'll want the part of Russia taken by Ukraine back too, he won't be able to sell anything less to his people.

Back to Finland, they gave up the ruined bits that Russian had destroyed, the populations of those areas, 99.9% of them went to Finland, that land still today, nearly 100 years later is still a ruined wasteland, that's what will be what Putin takes from this, a bunch of ruined towns and cities. He will also not be able to sell to his people Ukraine joining the EU and/or NATO, those ideas must be off the cards.

There will need to be policing of the new border, who is going to do that and what will they do once Russia has re-armed and comes at them again? Back to square one with the fear of escalation.

So you are negotiating for Ukraine's position, what would you suggest?

And then there's the matter of the stolen children to deal with, alongside Putin's arrest warrant that he absolutely wants rescinded.

I'm genuinely interested to know how any of the above can be realistically be achieved without Ukraine being another Belarus.

 

[Dystopiary]

If a poster on another thread talked about how public money shouldn't be spent on specialist sexual violence teams in the police and CPS, how rape victims were just slags who made it up, how men and boys shouldn't be taught about consent, about how women shouldn't be taught about safety or self defence, about how women who wore anything other than a bin liner were asking for it, and how rape should - in sentencing and criminal record terms - be treated like shoplifting, do you think you'd need them to explicitly say 'rape is great' in order to guage their views, or do you think you'd be able to figure it out all by your yourself?

TC has said, in Ukrainian terms, all of those things.

The middle bit might be messy, but in the end, it's binary: either you believe that Ukraine - or any other state - has the right to decide for itself how it chooses to organise itself, and who it's friends are, or you don't.

Which would be an interesting road to take for anyone who shouts 'Iraq'...

I've said it before (and was ignored)- I doubt I'm the only one who finds the use of sexual violence against women used as leverage in arguments on this thread at best distasteful. I see what you're trying to do but frankly I find it fucking horrible to read. I might be one of the few women who still posts on this thread but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm the only one who reads it.

 

[andysays]

He wants an end to the war on Russia's terms.

The war could end tomorrow if Putin wanted it to. Just stop this shit and pull his troops out.

Ask TopCat if he thinks that should happen and why he's not advocating that action.

TBH, this is like saying anyone who makes a post which doesn't contain a demand that Putin do something that we all know he won't do, even if he was reading the thread, is supporting Putin and Russia in their invasion.

It really doesn't stand a moment's proper thought.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Tankie nonsense

VE Day marked in Moscow and London

While senior politicians and members of the Royal Family marked Victory in Europe (VE) Day in London on Saturday, members of the Welsh Guards had the rare honour of marking the occasion in Russia

www.gov.uk

Tell that to the Poles etc. All this didn’t start with Putin.

 

[andysays]

I've said it before (and was ignored)- I doubt I'm the only one who finds the use of sexual violence against women used as leverage in arguments on this thread at best distasteful. I see what you're trying to do but frankly I find it fucking horrible to read. I might be one of the few women who still posts on this thread but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm the only one who reads it.

I'm not a woman, and I don't post on this thread very often, but I do read it and I too find it fucking horrible to read every time I read it.

 

[The39thStep]

I've said it before (and was ignored)- I doubt I'm the only one who finds the use of sexual violence against women used as leverage in arguments on this thread at best distasteful. I see what you're trying to do but frankly I find it fucking horrible to read. I might be one of the few women who still posts on this thread but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm the only one who reads it.

I'm glad you've spoken out as I was uncomfortable with this analogy when I read it although I do think that a metaphor of 'controlling behaviour' might be suitable to apply to the actions all the imperialist/former imperialist states

 

[Dystopiary]

I'm glad you've spoken out as I was uncomfortable with this analogy when I read it although I do think that a metaphor of 'controlling behaviour' might be suitable to apply to the actions all the imperialist/former imperialist states

I agree with that, and can see why kebabking used the analogy.

I think I worded it a bit better here, thought the context was slightly different.

 

[sleaterkinney]

TBH, this is like saying anyone who makes a post which doesn't contain a demand that Putin do something that we all know he won't do, even if he was reading the thread, is supporting Putin and Russia in their invasion.

It really doesn't stand a moment's proper thought.

But it is the actual reason for the conflict. It's not in Zelenskys power or Boris Johnsons or whoever to stop the war.

 

[The39thStep]

I agree with that, and can see why kebabking used the analogy.

I think I worded it a bit better here, thought the context was slightly different.

Actually I can't see why the analogy was used especially as such analogies were challenged earlier by several posters. I just hope they won't be used again.

Edit : applies to all posters

 

[editor]

i've often thought that one of the things that illustrates the freedom of the press in the West is the bottomless stream of news articles favourable to Russia that people can not only trawl through but exercise their right to post them on here. That wouldn't happen in Russia.

A site like this couldn't exist in Russia, and if it did, I'd certainly be behind bars as would many posters.

How people can express support for such a regime baffles me.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You get the bombs to stop falling.

Assume, like Finland had to that Ukraine concedes the occupied lands as they stand today, that leaves all four regions he declared annexed as not totally part of Russia, so he's going to want land his army has not already taken. He'll want the part of Russia taken by Ukraine back too, he won't be able to sell anything less to his people.

Back to Finland, they gave up the ruined bits that Russian had destroyed, the populations of those areas, 99.9% of them went to Finland, that land still today, nearly 100 years later is still a ruined wasteland, that's what will be what Putin takes from this, a bunch of ruined towns and cities. He will also not be able to sell to his people Ukraine joining the EU and/or NATO, those ideas must be off the cards.

There will need to be policing of the new border, who is going to do that and what will they do once Russia has re-armed and comes at them again? Back to square one with the fear of escalation.

So you are negotiating for Ukraine's position, what would you suggest?

And then there's the matter of the stolen children to deal with, alongside Putin's arrest warrant that he absolutely wants rescinded.

I'm genuinely interested to know how any of the above can be realistically be achieved without Ukraine being another Belarus.

I assume you're referring to the Winter War? There is a clue in its name as to one major way in which that differs from this situation.

But you and various other people seem to be listening to what Putin says and assuming that those are the only terms he would accept in a settlement. Surely he is setting out what he wants in order to claim an absolute victory. What a negotiation would represent is a way out of this war for Putin that is a considerable way short of absolute victory but gives him enough that he will accept it.

Does that mean rewarding aggression? Yeah. It does. But the disastrous course of this war will also be a cautionary tale for Putin. The idea that he'd fall back only to come again is a highly questionable assumption. This war has gone very badly for him. Why would he expect things to go so better for him next time?

It would be messy and no doubt unsatisfactory in many ways, but it would end the slaughter. What is the alternative? Three more years of slaughter? Six more years? What will be left to claim victory over by then? That's not a victory. That's everyone losing, which is what is happening right now.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

A site like this couldn't exist in Russia, and if it did, I'd certainly be behind bars as would many posters.

How people can express support for such a regime baffles me.

Can you quote a poster here who expresses support for the Putin regime?

 

[Pickman's model]

But it is the actual reason for the conflict. It's not in Zelenskys power or Boris Johnsons or whoever to stop the war

Can we stfu about this because it's been better done a score or more times before and it's really fucking boring now

 

[kabbes]

i've often thought that one of the things that illustrates the freedom of the press in the West is the bottomless stream of news articles favourable to Russia that people can not only trawl through but exercise their right to post them on here. That wouldn't happen in Russia.

People in Russia are literally being sent to jail for years for daring to say anything against the war. It strikes me as incredibly poor taste to attempt to draw an equivalence between that and having Spymaster call you a bellend.

Anti-war protest in Russia

www.amnesty.org

Steve Rosenberg: Russian snitching evokes ghosts of the past

More Russians have been reporting each other since Ukraine invasion - what are the implications?

www.bbc.co.uk

How the Russian Government Silences Wartime Dissent

A law making it illegal to discredit Russia’s army has ensnared thousands of Russians for even mild acts or statements against the war.

www.nytimes.com

 

[two sheds]

People in Russia are literally being sent to jail for years for daring to say anything against the war. It strikes me as incredibly poor taste to attempt to draw an equivalence between that and having Spymaster call you a bellend.

close call though

 

[Chz]

This one simple test will reveal if you're a Putin loving tankie or a snivelling NATO apologist

 

[Silas Loom]

This one simple test will reveal if you're a Putin loving tankie or a snivelling NATO apologist

95% - “Halliburton stooge”, apparently. Not really fair. Crap test.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Does that mean rewarding aggression? Yeah. It does. But the disastrous course of this war will also be a cautionary tale for Putin. The idea that he'd fall back only to come again is a highly questionable assumption. This war has gone very badly for him. Why would he expect things to go so better for him next time?

It would be messy and no doubt unsatisfactory in many ways, but it would end the slaughter. What is the alternative? Three more years of slaughter? Six more years? What will be left to claim victory over by then? That's not a victory. That's everyone losing, which is what is happening right now.

Was he satisfied when he annexed Crimea or the Donbas?. Maybe he will go for the Baltic states next?.

Also, what would happen to the Ukrainians in the territories that have been given up?.

The alternative is supporting Ukraine properly, militarily and non-militarily. We are not doing anything near that.