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Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

Weren’t they offered a peace deal a couple of years ago but Boris Johnson told them to fight on as he needed the photoshoots in camouflage for his image.

Shame that ordinary people’s lives are less important than the egos of the various political leaders involved. None of them or their family will be fighting and dying


:facepalm:

The ‘peace deal’ was effectively hand over your country and government to Russia, delete you culture and language, and be a vassal state of Russia forever. With an added topping of everyone who has opposed Russia to be killed.
 
The way the pro-war posters on here call those of us who oppose a brutal imperialist invasion pro-war has a real "who are the real Nazis" vibe to it, doesn't it?

And that level of a complete divorce from reality lets me think that they are teetering on the edge of going full on right wing conspiracy loon, and I suspect some of them are much further down that rabbit hole than they let on here.

I dunno though on that last suspicion, I think that by the point that they have started blaming Boris Johnson for frustrating a peace deal, they’ve pretty visibly gone down the rabbit hole and started on the bottle labelled “drink me”.
 
Weren’t they offered a peace deal a couple of years ago but Boris Johnson told them to fight on as he needed the photoshoots in camouflage for his image.
Ukraine sent 10 of thousands of people to die because Broris Johnson asked them too.

See full on fucking conspiracy loon thinking. But really stupid even by those standards.

By the way I'm not talking too you Elpenor, you not worth the effort, I'm talking about you.
 
I dunno though on that last suspicion, I think that by the point that they have started blaming Boris Johnson for frustrating a peace deal, they’ve pretty visibly gone down the rabbit hole and started on the bottle labelled “drink me”.

I’m down no rabbit hole.

Just want the wars - all war - to end and for the world to be safer.
 
Ukraine sent 10 of thousands of people to die because Broris Johnson asked them too.

See full on fucking conspiracy loon thinking. But really stupid even by those standards.

By the way I'm not talking too you Elpenor, you not worth the effort, I'm talking about you.
Is being against war a conspiracy loon? that makes everyone who marched against Iraq one then
 
I dunno though on that last suspicion, I think that by the point that they have started blaming Boris Johnson for frustrating a peace deal, they’ve pretty visibly gone down the rabbit hole and started on the bottle labelled “drink me”.
It's mental, i don't get why so many on here take them seriously or try defend them.

There is a huge double standard as well if they talking about Israel the same way they would be hounded of the boards.
 
:facepalm:

The ‘peace deal’ was effectively hand over your country and government to Russia, delete you culture and language, and be a vassal state of Russia forever. With an added topping of everyone who has opposed Russia to be killed.
Is that better or worse than the millions of lives destroyed. I genuinely have no idea but there comes a point when not taking the deal is the worse option :(
 
Is being against war a conspiracy loon? that makes everyone who marched against Iraq one then
OK I will address you one more time.

YOU ARE NO AGAINST WAR YOU ARE IN FAVOUR OF IT.

now just fuck of the 4chan or something will you
 
Back on topic.

Is there anything that can happen before the US congressional elections in November which would mean a step-change in money and ammunition and missiles available to Ukraine?

Even if there’s a concerted European effort to confiscate more Russian cash, are the only stockpiles of weaponry on offer in the US? Or could production be ramped up at dizzying speed in the countries which take the Russian threat seriously, if only there was financing?

And yes, I get that it’s a bit tricky to answer in broad terms and that the situation is different for each class of drone or shell or missile, but it’s not clear from current coverage what, if anything, might break the deadlock over this summer.
 
Weren’t they offered a peace deal a couple of years ago but Boris Johnson told them to fight on as he needed the photoshoots in camouflage for his image.

That was a totally unsubstantiated claim made by the discokermit, it's just conspiracy nonsense.

Surely you don't seriously believe Ukraine only decided to fight on, just on the say so of Johnson?
 
Back on topic.

Is there anything that can happen before the US congressional elections in November which would mean a step-change in money and ammunition and missiles available to Ukraine?

Even if there’s a concerted European effort to confiscate more Russian cash, are the only stockpiles of weaponry on offer in the US? Or could production be ramped up at dizzying speed in the countries which take the Russian threat seriously, if only there was financing?

And yes, I get that it’s a bit tricky to answer in broad terms and that the situation is different for each class of drone or shell or missile, but it’s not clear from current coverage what, if anything, might break the deadlock over this summer.
Chartbook 270: How Russia makes missiles - an important report from Rhodus Intelligence
Adam Tooze. Mar 17, 2024
The war in Ukraine has become a battle of material and in a jarring inversion of the familiar balance the “Western side” does not have the upper hand.

Even if funds are available, both the Europeans and American producers lack the capacity to manufacture the munitions Ukraine desperately needs.

According to one recent estimate in the FT, there is a stark disparity between the ammunition production of Russia and the West.

"Russia’s annual artillery munition production has risen from 800,000 prewar to an estimated 2.5mn, or 4mn including refurbished shells. EU and US production capacity stands at about 700,000 and 400,000 respectively, although the EU aims to hit 1.4mn by the end of this year and the US 1.2mn by 2024."​

According to estimates by experts Michael Kofman and Ryan Evans, Russia’s battlefield firepower advantage may amount to 5:1.

The inadequacy of Europe and American supply chains is all too obvious. But we must also ask how Russia is able to sustain its much higher levels of output.
 
Under what conditions do you see the war stopping? If Ukraine gave up their claim to the territory currently occupied by Russia, what guarantee would they have that Russia won't just have another go at rump Ukraine after having a few years to rearm and recuperate?

It seems to be that an end to the conflict on those terms would necessarily have to mean either more NATO expansion and more arming of Ukraine in order to provide a security guarantee. The only alternative end is for a country of 40 million to be conquered and subjugated by a neo-fascist imperialist power. Unless there is some scenario you have in mind?

TopCat discokermit

Seeing as Elpenor doesn't seem interested in answering this question, feel free to field this one.
 
Back on topic.

Is there anything that can happen before the US congressional elections in November which would mean a step-change in money and ammunition and missiles available to Ukraine?

Even if there’s a concerted European effort to confiscate more Russian cash, are the only stockpiles of weaponry on offer in the US? Or could production be ramped up at dizzying speed in the countries which take the Russian threat seriously, if only there was financing?
Firstly thanks for trying to shut out the background noise by posting this question.

There's been a couple of proposals discussed within the EU. The first was from France about the enormous financing needs of more support to Ukraine and arguing for a sort of Eurobonad scheme similar to what the EY did with the economic and social consequences of the covid pandemic. Germany, the Dutch and some of the Nordics ie the traditionally prudent not were against so that's not likely to see daylight again unless it's severely amended and lobbied for. They did agree however on the use of dividends from Russian assets frozen in Europe since the start of the invasion, but only those that were accumulated this year. That comes in around 3 billion euros which whilst not to be sniffed at falls way short of the type of dosh that would required. The EU have agreed subsidised and incentivised investment funding for the private arms producers but there is no quick turn around on that and it's more likely to be re-hashed as part of the EU review on military and civil preparedness which is due later this year.

The EU elections are in June .
 
Weren’t they offered a peace deal a couple of years ago but Boris Johnson told them to fight on as he needed the photoshoots in camouflage for his image.
Let's say that characterisation is 100% accurate. How does obsessing over a failed negotiation from two years ago help today? What are Putin's conditions now? Do you even know?
 
Weren’t they offered a peace deal a couple of years ago but Boris Johnson told them to fight on as he needed the photoshoots in camouflage for his image.

Shame that ordinary people’s lives are less important than the egos of the various political leaders involved. None of them or their family will be fighting and dying

I've always been intrigued as to exactly what hold Boris Johnson had over Ukraine - you seem to be suggesting that Ukraine was quite happy with the alleged offer (it wasn't...) but only decided not to stop having it's cities leveled and it's children deported because Boris Johnson said he needed photoshoots...

This is all a bit 'secret world government' and 'international finance' - I think you're being a bit of a conspiraloon in believing this tripe, and a bit of an idiot for not asking yourself 'do I really think that's likely?'.
 
TopCat discokermit

Seeing as Elpenor doesn't seem interested in answering this question, feel free to field this one.
I missed that post sorry, just a quick response as about to get on the road

I don’t have any idea of how peace is achievable. I’m no diplomat, well beyond my pay grade. I believe my posts have been expressing a simple wish but am well aware I don’t have the solution.

But not having the solution shouldn’t preclude me from expressing this wish should it?
 
Weren’t they offered a peace deal a couple of years ago but Boris Johnson told them to fight on as he needed the photoshoots in camouflage for his image.

Shame that ordinary people’s lives are less important than the egos of the various political leaders involved. None of them or their family will be fighting and dying
Yes that's right. Entire nations decide their foreign policy on whatever Boris Johnson says to them.
 
I should hope most of us want the war to end as soon as possible.

What concerns me is - who gets left behind to suffer under occupation? Most likely to be disabled people, people with mental health issues, elderly people and orphans. They're the people most likely to be left behind when invaded which is what's happened in the occupied South and East of Ukraine. As they always are, at the mercy of the occupiers. That's not peace.
 
Back on topic.

Is there anything that can happen before the US congressional elections in November which would mean a step-change in money and ammunition and missiles available to Ukraine?

Even if there’s a concerted European effort to confiscate more Russian cash, are the only stockpiles of weaponry on offer in the US? Or could production be ramped up at dizzying speed in the countries which take the Russian threat seriously, if only there was financing?

And yes, I get that it’s a bit tricky to answer in broad terms and that the situation is different for each class of drone or shell or missile, but it’s not clear from current coverage what, if anything, might break the deadlock over this summer.

Honestly not a lot a think. If you have the time to spare these 2 episodes of the war on the rocks podcast touch on the issue as part of an overall sober assessment of the current situation.

The second one also seems to be arguing that manpower may in fact be a bigger issue for Ukraine.

Generally an interesting podcast, juat got to keep in mind the perspective they are comming from is very much pro American military.



 
That was a totally unsubstantiated claim made by the discokermit, it's just conspiracy nonsense.
tbf, it wasn't totally unsubstantiated.

The39thStep posted loads of links about the spring 2022 peace negotiations, which I did go through and read.

Having read them, my understanding is that:

As the initial invasion faltered, Kiev didn't fall as expected and Russian troops retreated, Russia did offer a peace deal.

The main points of the peace offer was that Russian troops would retreat to their positions before the Feb 2022 invasion (so keeping the post-2014 areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions); Ukraine would agree not to join NATO, would limit the size of its military and a few other things, like giving Russian and Ukrainian languages equal footing.

The negotiators and others quoted in the links (except Gerhard Schroeder, with his business links to Russia) felt that the offer was mainly to buy time for the Russian military to regroup before relaunching the invasion, so this meant the guarantees mattered, especially as with a newly limited military, Ukraine would be less able to defend itself.

Under the offer all guarantor states of the peace deal would have to unanimously agree to act. Russia wanted Belarus as their guarantor, who just might have caused problems for a unanimous agreement. Ukraine specified Turkey as a guarantor. The US didn't want to be a guarantor as if, as expected, Russia did relaunch the invasion they would be expected to send US troops to directly fight Russian troops, something Biden wants to avoid.

After reaching this position, details of the Bucha massacre emerged, hardening Ukrainian attitudes, Western Governments offered support to Ukraine to enable them to fight (including Johnson bumbling into Kiev shouting Fight! Feck! Gurls!, or whatever he said) and then Russia relaunched the invasion with more success in the south east and at that point the offer was dead on both sides.

It was an interesting delve into the peace negotiations, but there was nothing to suggest that it was a genuine attempt to end the war by Russia that was thrown in their face because of Western intervention.

So how did it come to be characterised as Russia offered peace, but Johnson made them fight on?

I find it interesting how, from time to time, a new angle on How The West Are To Blame will surface. I previously had a dig into the 2021 US Ukraine Strategic Partnership, when that was supposed to be the cause of the war.

As with this, selective quoting, careful wording and a few missing key pieces of information did create the impression of something untoward, but a close look revealed it to be just a thing that happened rather than evidence of the West looking to make the war happen.

So how does this esoterica get turned into suggestions the West caused the war/wants it to continue? Where do those heavily edited videos in Tweets and specifically spun details come from? My suspicion is Russia.

'Russian Troll Farms' are so discussed they almost seem ridiculous, but they're real, most famously the Internet Research Agency, which ran between 2013 and 2023 (when it's founder Prigozhin had his unfortunate accident), which employed over 1000 people. They weren't the only one and the fake video of Danilov from last week shows there's still people out there doing the work.

It's completely sensible to try to look beyond the pro-Ukrainian view in the western media to gain a critical view of what's happening, but as soon as you look away from mainstream Western sources you find yourself presented with a pro-Russian version of events pumped out of Russia, looking to sow doubt, confusion and present a version of the world that is much more to the Russian state's taste. For those who are (quite rightly) critical of Western foreign policy it can be tempting to get sucked in. But its as important to look past the pro-Russian version of events as it is a simplistic pro-Ukrainian one, to try not to take sides, and just to try to understand what's going on.

I'd love to see peace as much as everyone else, but once war is unleashed it takes on its own logic and, whatever anyone wants, finding a way to make it stop is not easy. That's why starting wars is always a bad idea, whoever does it.
 
Of course Ukraine did sign a peace deal with Russia, one in which Russia guaranteed the sovereign integrity of Ukraine and its borders in perpetuity. Within 20 years Russia broke that deal, invaded Ukraine, killing thousands and then shot down a Malaysian Airlines 777 heading from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, killing everyone on board.
 
tbf, it wasn't totally unsubstantiated.

The39thStep posted loads of links about the spring 2022 peace negotiations, which I did go through and read.

Having read them, my understanding is that:

As the initial invasion faltered, Kiev didn't fall as expected and Russian troops retreated, Russia did offer a peace deal.

The main points of the peace offer was that Russian troops would retreat to their positions before the Feb 2022 invasion (so keeping the post-2014 areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions); Ukraine would agree not to join NATO, would limit the size of its military and a few other things, like giving Russian and Ukrainian languages equal footing.

The negotiators and others quoted in the links (except Gerhard Schroeder, with his business links to Russia) felt that the offer was mainly to buy time for the Russian military to regroup before relaunching the invasion, so this meant the guarantees mattered, especially as with a newly limited military, Ukraine would be less able to defend itself.

Under the offer all guarantor states of the peace deal would have to unanimously agree to act. Russia wanted Belarus as their guarantor, who just might have caused problems for a unanimous agreement. Ukraine specified Turkey as a guarantor. The US didn't want to be a guarantor as if, as expected, Russia did relaunch the invasion they would be expected to send US troops to directly fight Russian troops, something Biden wants to avoid.

After reaching this position, details of the Bucha massacre emerged, hardening Ukrainian attitudes, Western Governments offered support to Ukraine to enable them to fight (including Johnson bumbling into Kiev shouting Fight! Feck! Gurls!, or whatever he said) and then Russia relaunched the invasion with more success in the south east and at that point the offer was dead on both sides.

It was an interesting delve into the peace negotiations, but there was nothing to suggest that it was a genuine attempt to end the war by Russia that was thrown in their face because of Western intervention.

So how did it come to be characterised as Russia offered peace, but Johnson made them fight on?

I find it interesting how, from time to time, a new angle on How The West Are To Blame will surface. I previously had a dig into the 2021 US Ukraine Strategic Partnership, when that was supposed to be the cause of the war.

As with this, selective quoting, careful wording and a few missing key pieces of information did create the impression of something untoward, but a close look revealed it to be just a thing that happened rather than evidence of the West looking to make the war happen.

So how does this esoterica get turned into suggestions the West caused the war/wants it to continue? Where do those heavily edited videos in Tweets and specifically spun details come from? My suspicion is Russia.

'Russian Troll Farms' are so discussed they almost seem ridiculous, but they're real, most famously the Internet Research Agency, which ran between 2013 and 2023 (when it's founder Prigozhin had his unfortunate accident), which employed over 1000 people. They weren't the only one and the fake video of Danilov from last week shows there's still people out there doing the work.

It's completely sensible to try to look beyond the pro-Ukrainian view in the western media to gain a critical view of what's happening, but as soon as you look away from mainstream Western sources you find yourself presented with a pro-Russian version of events pumped out of Russia, looking to sow doubt, confusion and present a version of the world that is much more to the Russian state's taste. For those who are (quite rightly) critical of Western foreign policy it can be tempting to get sucked in. But its as important to look past the pro-Russian version of events as it is a simplistic pro-Ukrainian one, to try not to take sides, and just to try to understand what's going on.

I'd love to see peace as much as everyone else, but once war is unleashed it takes on its own logic and, whatever anyone wants, finding a way to make it stop is not easy. That's why starting wars is always a bad idea, whoever does it.

I knew and agree with all that, the unsubstantiated comment was in respect of the crazy idea that the war is ongoing simply because of something Johnson had said.
 
I knew and agree with all that, the unsubstantiated comment was in respect of the crazy idea that the war is ongoing simply because of something Johnson had said.
So Johnson could have photoshoots!

It was amazing timing that while I was typing out a post saying the pro-war lot where heading down the conspiracy route that got posted. An idea so batshit, the anti-mask crowd would think it sounded silly.
 
tbf, it wasn't totally unsubstantiated.

The39thStep posted loads of links about the spring 2022 peace negotiations, which I did go through and read.

Having read them, my understanding is that:

As the initial invasion faltered, Kiev didn't fall as expected and Russian troops retreated, Russia did offer a peace deal.

The main points of the peace offer was that Russian troops would retreat to their positions before the Feb 2022 invasion (so keeping the post-2014 areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions); Ukraine would agree not to join NATO, would limit the size of its military and a few other things, like giving Russian and Ukrainian languages equal footing.

The negotiators and others quoted in the links (except Gerhard Schroeder, with his business links to Russia) felt that the offer was mainly to buy time for the Russian military to regroup before relaunching the invasion, so this meant the guarantees mattered, especially as with a newly limited military, Ukraine would be less able to defend itself.

Under the offer all guarantor states of the peace deal would have to unanimously agree to act. Russia wanted Belarus as their guarantor, who just might have caused problems for a unanimous agreement. Ukraine specified Turkey as a guarantor. The US didn't want to be a guarantor as if, as expected, Russia did relaunch the invasion they would be expected to send US troops to directly fight Russian troops, something Biden wants to avoid.

After reaching this position, details of the Bucha massacre emerged, hardening Ukrainian attitudes, Western Governments offered support to Ukraine to enable them to fight (including Johnson bumbling into Kiev shouting Fight! Feck! Gurls!, or whatever he said) and then Russia relaunched the invasion with more success in the south east and at that point the offer was dead on both sides.

It was an interesting delve into the peace negotiations, but there was nothing to suggest that it was a genuine attempt to end the war by Russia that was thrown in their face because of Western intervention.

So how did it come to be characterised as Russia offered peace, but Johnson made them fight on?

I find it interesting how, from time to time, a new angle on How The West Are To Blame will surface. I previously had a dig into the 2021 US Ukraine Strategic Partnership, when that was supposed to be the cause of the war.

As with this, selective quoting, careful wording and a few missing key pieces of information did create the impression of something untoward, but a close look revealed it to be just a thing that happened rather than evidence of the West looking to make the war happen.

So how does this esoterica get turned into suggestions the West caused the war/wants it to continue? Where do those heavily edited videos in Tweets and specifically spun details come from? My suspicion is Russia.

'Russian Troll Farms' are so discussed they almost seem ridiculous, but they're real, most famously the Internet Research Agency, which ran between 2013 and 2023 (when it's founder Prigozhin had his unfortunate accident), which employed over 1000 people. They weren't the only one and the fake video of Danilov from last week shows there's still people out there doing the work.

It's completely sensible to try to look beyond the pro-Ukrainian view in the western media to gain a critical view of what's happening, but as soon as you look away from mainstream Western sources you find yourself presented with a pro-Russian version of events pumped out of Russia, looking to sow doubt, confusion and present a version of the world that is much more to the Russian state's taste. For those who are (quite rightly) critical of Western foreign policy it can be tempting to get sucked in. But its as important to look past the pro-Russian version of events as it is a simplistic pro-Ukrainian one, to try not to take sides, and just to try to understand what's going on.

I'd love to see peace as much as everyone else, but once war is unleashed it takes on its own logic and, whatever anyone wants, finding a way to make it stop is not easy. That's why starting wars is always a bad idea, whoever does it.
Excellent post.
 
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