Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[andysays]

So who are these posters who say they're being silenced?

I haven't heard anyone say they've been silenced

 

[two sheds]

I've not been silenced just nobody listens to me

 

[JimW]

Better to be silenced than sawn off or modified to take NATO calibre.

 

[spitfire]

I'd better up my game or the CIA * will want their money back.


*who do not exist

 

[editor]

Literally not a single person has been silenced or banned because of their political beliefs on this thread.

 

[bcuster]

 

[Yossarian]

Good piece here on how Russia is using homophobia as a weapon of war

The Kremlin doubled down on this strategy when it launched the full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022. Russian state media spread outlandish stories about L.G.B.T.Q. people — for instance, that a queer community center in Mariupol was “practically under the direct patronage” of President Biden and the U.S. Congress. Mr. Putin himself sounded increasingly unhinged as his invasion bogged down, describing the attack on Ukraine as a holy war against the West’s “reverse religion of real Satanism” in a September 2022 speech announcing that Russia would annex Kherson and three other regions.

...There is evidence that Russian forces are committing many other crimes in the process ... But international law must also recognize that Mr. Putin’s war against Ukraine is an explicit attack on L.G.B.T.Q. people and name that as a crime, too. While Russia is far from the first state to persecute L.G.B.T.Q. people — Nazi Germany is estimated to have sent thousands of queer people to concentration camps — it is the first superpower to deploy homophobia as a major justification for invading another country.

https://archive.is/iVWFr

This report on war crimes against LGBTQ+ people in the Kherson region was released Friday

Final Report - PROJECTOR

Звіт за результатами документування воєнних злочинів проти ЛҐБТК+ на Херсонщині за період з березня по вересень 2023 року

www.projector.org.ua

 

[TopCat]

Good piece here on how Russia is using homophobia as a weapon of war

The Kremlin doubled down on this strategy when it launched the full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022. Russian state media spread outlandish stories about L.G.B.T.Q. people — for instance, that a queer community center in Mariupol was “practically under the direct patronage” of President Biden and the U.S. Congress. Mr. Putin himself sounded increasingly unhinged as his invasion bogged down, describing the attack on Ukraine as a holy war against the West’s “reverse religion of real Satanism” in a September 2022 speech announcing that Russia would annex Kherson and three other regions.

...There is evidence that Russian forces are committing many other crimes in the process ... But international law must also recognize that Mr. Putin’s war against Ukraine is an explicit attack on L.G.B.T.Q. people and name that as a crime, too. While Russia is far from the first state to persecute L.G.B.T.Q. people — Nazi Germany is estimated to have sent thousands of queer people to concentration camps — it is the first superpower to deploy homophobia as a major justification for invading another country.

https://archive.is/iVWFr

This report on war crimes against LGBTQ+ people in the Kherson region was released Friday

Final Report - PROJECTOR

Звіт за результатами документування воєнних злочинів проти ЛҐБТК+ на Херсонщині за період з березня по вересень 2023 року

www.projector.org.ua

Can you compare and contrast with Ukrainian attitudes to LGBTQ?

 

[Yossarian]

Can you compare and contrast with Ukrainian attitudes to LGBTQ?

Certainly sir, I'll complete that assignment for you just as soon as Ukraine invades one of its neighbours and starts committing massive war crimes

 

[TopCat]

Certainly sir, I'll complete that assignment for you just as soon as Ukraine invades one of its neighbours and starts committing massive war crimes

I think you will find that yet again your Ukrainian heroes are rather tarnished.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Can you compare and contrast with Ukrainian attitudes to LGBTQ?

Not great, but better than Russia, and has been improving in recent years.

In a 2010 European study, 28% of Ukrainians polled believed that LGBT individuals should live freely and however they like, the lowest number of all European countries polled except for Russia. In 2015, the Ukrainian Parliament approved an employment anti-discrimination law covering sexual orientation and gender identity, and in 2016, Ukrainian officials simplified the transition process for transgender people and began allowing gay and bisexual men to donate blood. In 2023 the International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association ranked Ukraine 39th out of 49 European countries in terms of LGBT rights legislation, similarly to EU members Lithuania and Romania. Marriage remains limited to heterosexual couples under the 1996 constitution.

In the 2011 UN General Assembly declaration for LGBT rights, Ukraine was the only East Slavic country to express its support. In late 2022, parliament unanimously approved a media regulation bill that banned hate speech and incitement based on sexual orientation or gender identity. In March 2023, a parliamentary bill was introduced for civil unions.

LGBT rights in Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Yossarian]

I think you will find that yet again your Ukrainian heroes are rather tarnished.

I think your false equivalency and glib dismissal of war crimes is reminiscent of people who defend the actions of the IDF

 

[Spandex]

Can you compare and contrast with Ukrainian attitudes to LGBTQ?

Here's a report on the LGBTQ situation in Ukraine by the Ukrainian LGBT Human Rights NASH SVIT Center:

War and Civil Partnerships. LGBTQ situation in Ukraine in 2023

They say:

"The full-scale war with Russia, creating a mortal threat to the existence of
Ukraine as an independent state, at the same time forced Ukrainian society
to unite in resistance to a common enemy and compromised ultra-
conservative values — in particular, homophobia and transphobia — the
protection of which the Russian state and church announced as a reason for
this war. Ukraine's acquisition of the candidate status to the EU prompted
the state authorities and society to carry out rapid and decisive reforms to
modernize and approach modern Western standards in all spheres of life.
The trends, which became evident after the start of the full-scale Russian
invasion in 2022, persisted and intensified in 2023. In particular, all recent
public opinion polls confirm the growth of tolerant attitudes towards
LGBTQ people and the rapid decrease of public trust to Ukrainian churches,
which remain extremely conservative and do not make any concessions in
their openly hostile attitude towards LGBTQ"

 

[Artaxerxes]

Certainly sir, I'll complete that assignment for you just as soon as Ukraine invades one of its neighbours and starts committing massive war crimes

3/10 See Me

 

[Artaxerxes]

Here's a report on the LGBTQ situation in Ukraine by the Ukrainian LGBT Human Rights NASH SVIT Center:

War and Civil Partnerships. LGBTQ situation in Ukraine in 2023

They say:

"The full-scale war with Russia, creating a mortal threat to the existence of
Ukraine as an independent state, at the same time forced Ukrainian society
to unite in resistance to a common enemy and compromised ultra-
conservative values — in particular, homophobia and transphobia — the
protection of which the Russian state and church announced as a reason for
this war. Ukraine's acquisition of the candidate status to the EU prompted
the state authorities and society to carry out rapid and decisive reforms to
modernize and approach modern Western standards in all spheres of life.
The trends, which became evident after the start of the full-scale Russian
invasion in 2022, persisted and intensified in 2023. In particular, all recent
public opinion polls confirm the growth of tolerant attitudes towards
LGBTQ people and the rapid decrease of public trust to Ukrainian churches,
which remain extremely conservative and do not make any concessions in
their openly hostile attitude towards LGBTQ"

But did you do your own research?

 

[TopCat]

I think your false equivalency and glib dismissal of war crimes is reminiscent of people who defend the actions of the IDF

A new low for you

 

[Pickman's model]

I think you will find that yet again your Ukrainian heroes are rather tarnished.

no more heroes any more

 

[spitfire]

I posted a documentary on queer people fighting for Ukraine on this very thread months ago. To deny them their bravery and agency is indeed a new low.

 

[The39thStep]

I think Zelensky’s support for Israel’s ‘right to defend itself ‘ is far more connected to be seen siding with ‘the West’ than anything else tbh .

 

[yield]

I posted a documentary on queer people fighting for Ukraine on this very thread months ago. To deny them their bravery and agency is indeed a new low.

Who was doing that? TopCat wrote: "Can you compare and contrast with Ukrainian attitudes to LGBTQ?"

As you know, Western European and American attitudes to sexual orientation and/or gender identity are not universal.

no more heroes any more

Pity the country that needs heroes

 

[Silas Loom]

I think Zelensky’s support for Israel’s ‘right to defend itself ‘ is far more connected to be seen siding with ‘the West’ than anything else tbh .

Perhaps, as prime minister of a country which has suffered both to appalling degrees, he’s developed a keen sense for the moral distinctions between savage murder and rape on the one hand, and indiscriminate bombing with mass casualties and life-threatening infrastructure degradation on the other.

 

[spitfire]

Who was doing that? TopCat wrote: "Can you compare and contrast with Ukrainian attitudes to LGBTQ?"

As you know, Western European and American attitudes to sexual orientation and/or gender identity are not universal.

Pity the country that needs heroes

The implication is clear and the MO is also. Plausible deniability, "just asking questions", but always from the same angle.

It is quite easy to find many examples of LGBTQ people fighting and serving in the UAF but apparently that's too difficult.

Sure there's loads of neanderthal attitudes in Ukraine but to "Compare and contrast" with Russia" is bullshit and whitewashes the LGBTQ communities contribution to the defence of the illegal invasion.

 

[Dystopiary]

TopCat

Kyiv Pride 2022:

To look at videos from last year’s [2022] Pride Parade in Kyiv is to peer at a joyous moment of solidarity in the quest for gay rights in Ukraine. A video on YouTube shows a cheerful crowd of thousands. Some wave flags. Some carry banners. Drag queens dance on a float.

But the war that started when Russia invaded on Feb. 24 has forced Ukraine’s L.G.B.T.Q. movement to confront a threat not only to national sovereignty, but also to its own community.

A pro-Russian puppet government, they say, would be less supportive of the L.G.B.T.Q. agenda. Gay marriage would likely remain unrecognized, they say, and incidents of discrimination and hate crime would rise, as they have in Russian-backed separatist regions.

Another way in which things have got worse since the full Russian invasion in Feb 2021, is men aged 18-60 have been banned from leaving the country. Lenny Emson of Kyiv Pride says they were aware of about 100 trans women in Ukraine who were in the process of getting legal gender recognition when the war started. Now they're trapped because of the "M" on their passports.

One sign of how Mr. Putin’s values could potentially be applied to Ukraine comes from Crimea, said Maksym Eristavi, a Ukrainian gay rights activist and journalist. The region was seized by Russia from Ukraine in 2014, along with parts of eastern Donbas region. Human rights groups say both regions have seen a crackdown on human rights defenders and a rise in attacks on people who are L.G.B.T.Q.

“It just breaks my heart that we had eight years of fantastic success bringing Ukraine even further but now this is being sabotaged,” said Mr. Eristavi.

https://archive.ph/meStE (archive from NYT)

 

[spitfire]

Powerful video of queer Ukrainians involved in the war. (Using their own definition, as a straight man I would normally say gay but following their preference I will use queer, hope that is OK?)

I found Andrii's explanation of where he is coming from fascinating. From about 8.27. Sums it up for me, precis: he is working alongside people that normally wouldn't drink in the same bar but they currently are. They may not after the war but for now...they have to. Watch it, he puts it better than I do.

Also they see this as an existential war. If Russia wins, their life ceases.

For anyone that missed it.

 

[The39thStep]

Perhaps, as prime minister of a country which has suffered both to appalling degrees, he’s developed a keen sense for the moral distinctions between savage murder and rape on the one hand, and indiscriminate bombing with mass casualties and life-threatening infrastructure degradation on the other.

Perhaps Zelensky is the President and Shmyhal is the Prime Minister ?

 

[spitfire]

Anyway, this is a good use of old bangers, our 2002 BMW estate went off with Bohdan to Ukraine at Christmas.

Vehicles can now be donated to Ukraine instead of being scrapped under Ulez

From Friday, non-compliant cars, vans and minibuses can be sent to country which is short of vehicles to transport casualties

www.theguardian.com

 

[ID47]

I think you will find that yet again your Ukrainian heroes are rather tarnished.

I'm sure they love the Gays:

 

[spitfire]

I was kind of expecting someone to find an article that highlighted negative experiences of LGBTQ people in Ukraine but that's just a pisspoor effort.

 

[ID47]

Maybe that’s what ID47 meant, Russia should get the fuck out of Ukraine as per the Holy Papa’s true desires?

Of course, who am I to doubt the Holy Father's infallibility?

 

[TopCat]

I was kind of expecting someone to find an article that highlighted negative experiences of LGBTQ people in Ukraine but that's just a pisspoor effort.

The study posted earlier went into detail as to their perceptions of LGBTQ people and the discrimination they faced. It said things were improving but it was incrementally and major institutions inc the churches and their congregation were implacably opposed.