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Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

despite the protestation "this is not desperation" but a "plan", most likely fingers crossed this is precisely that, final desperate nonsense that wont come to anything, in a vain attempt to prove to NATO theres anyone left out there still up for picking up a gun
 
ska invita said:
despite the protestation "this is not desperation" but a "plan", most likely fingers crossed this is precisely that, final desperate nonsense that wont come to anything, in a vain attempt to prove to NATO theres anyone left out there still up for picking up a gun
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I wonder what personal data is exchanged between the host states and Ukraine re Ukrainian refugees.
 
The39thStep said:
Be interesting to see what individual states say, if anything, or how far this progresses.
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Todays Guardian
“
  • Fighting age Ukrainian men in Estonia could be extradited to their home country and forced to join the war effort amid a shortage of soldiers. Estonia’s public broadcaster ERR reports that the Baltic nation stands ready to support Ukraine in its proposals to conscript Ukrainian men abroad for military service.”
 
Think a lot of the refugees coming to the UK are from countries with forced conscription eg Eritrea. Wouldn’t be surprised to see an increase from Ukraine if this goes through
 
A little more about conscription initiatives that Ukraine are considering (cut and paste from Ukrainian online paper NV)

Ukraine is considering implementing an e-notification system to replace draft notices for men who are conscripted, Defense Minister Rustem Umerov said in an interview with public broadcaster Suspilne on Dec. 23.
This is a rather complex process that needs to be discussed step by step, Umerov said, explaining that the first step will involve inventorying databases of individuals liable for military service and categorizing them accordingly.

The Defense Minister added that if the decision is made, e-notifications will be sent to Ukrainian men eligible for conscription abroad. The Defense Ministry is working on technical solutions to ensure this remains a "civilized" and organized process, Umerov insisted.
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Ukrainian MPs are drafting a bill to regulate conscription of Ukrainian citizens residing abroad, expected to be ready in January 2024, sitting member of the parliamentary Defense Committee Vadym Ivchenko told RFE/RL on Dec. 22.

Under the draft law, military-eligible men abroad will undergo identification, after which they could receive draft notices. The representative noted that Ukrainians would decide for themselves whether to return to Ukraine, but not returning would violate the law.

Defense Ministry approved a new doctrine for the military, called the Concept of Military Personnel Policy of the Ministry of Defense, in November. This doctrine is intended to stay in place until 2028. It encompasses changes related to recruiting, conscription, contract service, and the military registration system.

Umerov, has previously expressed his commitment to establishing an electronic military registry in Ukraine and rolling out electronic military IDs. The digitization process began in the spring of 2023 and is currently in use in some regions, particularly in frontline areas.

On Dec. 19, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy stated that the military had proposed mobilizing an additional 450,000 to 500,000 people, but he said that he needed convincing arguments to take this step, and UAH 500 billion ($13.3 billion) to finance the endeavor.
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Great photos but a not particularly convincing article in the New York Times regarding a possible ceasefire. Of course in a negotiated ceasefire there will be plenty on both sides who will claim victory of some kind, it would have been interesting to have explored how those actors would sell a ceasefire in which the maximalist positions they advanced wouldn't have been reached.

 
Conscription from abroad does seem to confirm that all this stuff written on this thread about Ukrainians being willing to fight to the bitter end is indeed nonsense. Why would anyone want to go and get killed fighting a much larger agressor when there's no realistic hope of reclaiming any territory without international support. The international support isn't there (shamefully I'd say) so futile cannon fodder it is.
 
teuchter said:
Conscription from abroad does seem to confirm that all this stuff written on this thread about Ukrainians being willing to fight to the bitter end is indeed nonsense. Why would anyone want to go and get killed fighting a much larger agressor when there's no realistic hope of reclaiming any territory without international support. The international support isn't there (shamefully I'd say) so futile cannon fodder it is.
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Calling it "shameful" sounds a bit over the top to me, unless you're prepared to clarify.

What sort of international support do you think there should be in addition to what's already been provided ?
 
andysays said:
Calling it "shameful" sounds a bit over the top to me, unless you're prepared to clarify.

What sort of international support do you think there should be in addition to what's already been provided ?
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Essentially, either provide decisive support ie actually send in people and equipment with the stated aim of getting the Russian military out of Ukraine, quickly, or be honest and say: we are not ever going to give you what you need to get them out, so the reality is, this is your new border.

What we seem to have at the moment is a worst of both worlds: continual fighting that doesn't get things any closer to a peace of any kind.

Any European state considering extraditing young men to be forced into fighting is even more complicit in things.
 
teuchter said:
Essentially, either provide decisive support ie actually send in people and equipment with the stated aim of getting the Russian military out of Ukraine, quickly, or be honest and say: we are not ever going to give you what you need to get them out, so the reality is, this is your new border.

What we seem to have at the moment is a worst of both worlds: continual fighting that doesn't get things any closer to a peace of any kind.

Any European state considering extraditing young men to be forced into fighting is even more complicit in things.
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So, just to be clear, you're not in favour of Ukrainian nationals being sent to fight in Ukraine from any European state they currently find themselves, but you are in favour of members of the armed forces of other countries being sent there to fight against the invading Russian forces.

Great stuff :thumbs: :thumbs:
 
andysays said:
So, just to be clear, you're not in favour of Ukrainian nationals being sent to fight in Ukraine from any European state they currently find themselves, but you are in favour of members of the armed forces of other countries being sent there to fight against the invading Russian forces.

Great stuff :thumbs: :thumbs:
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Tbf, at least they would be volunteers.
 
andysays said:
So, just to be clear, you're not in favour of Ukrainian nationals being sent to fight in Ukraine from any European state they currently find themselves, but you are in favour of members of the armed forces of other countries being sent there to fight against the invading Russian forces.

Great stuff :thumbs: :thumbs:
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Yes. If there is going to be fighting, I'd much prefer it to be done by professional soldiers with full training, backed up by modern equipment, people who have taken up a career in the military in the knowledge that this is the sort of thing they may be called upon to do. Furthermore I'd prefer it to be done in a way that has a high chance of success and that shortens the time period in which young men on both sides of the conflict are engaged in a horrific situation.

I'd much prefer this to sending terrified, untrained, ill equipped young men, against their will, to be killed or injured in a fight with no clear aim or end in sight.
 
teuchter said:
Yes. If there is going to be fighting, I'd much prefer it to be done by professional soldiers with full training, backed up by modern equipment, people who have taken up a career in the military in the knowledge that this is the sort of thing they may be called upon to do. Furthermore I'd prefer it to be done in a way that has a high chance of success and that shortens the time period in which young men on both sides of the conflict are engaged in a horrific situation.

I'd much prefer this to sending terrified, untrained, ill equipped young men, against their will, to be killed or injured in a fight with no clear aim or end in sight.
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You think NATO should send troops?
 
teuchter said:
Yes. If there is going to be fighting, I'd much prefer it to be done by professional soldiers with full training, backed up by modern equipment, people who have taken up a career in the military in the knowledge that this is the sort of thing they may be called upon to do. Furthermore I'd prefer it to be done in a way that has a high chance of success and that shortens the time period in which young men on both sides of the conflict are engaged in a horrific situation.

I'd much prefer this to sending terrified, untrained, ill equipped young men, against their will, to be killed or injured in a fight with no clear aim or end in sight.
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I'd rather you actually gave the matter some proper consideration instead of coming out with a load of patriarchal claptrap. And your sidelining of rather more than 50% of the population is really curious.
 
teuchter said:
Conscription from abroad does seem to confirm that all this stuff written on this thread about Ukrainians being willing to fight to the bitter end is indeed nonsense. Why would anyone want to go and get killed fighting a much larger agressor when there's no realistic hope of reclaiming any territory without international support. The international support isn't there (shamefully I'd say) so futile cannon fodder it is.
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The training of Ukrainian forces by eg UK & us teams and the supply of vast amounts of materiel to the contrary though. you haven't thought that there might be reason to fight to prevent the russians getting more of Ukraine than they have
 
TopCat said:
You think NATO should send troops?
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I don't really know what "should" happen however I'd rather see a NATO nation send its own troops than extradite Ukrainians to be conscripted.

I would ask them why it's the right thing to do, to extradite Ukrainians, and I'd ask why the same reasoning would not apply to their own troops.
 
teuchter said:
I don't really know what "should" happen however I'd rather see a NATO nation send its own troops than extradite Ukrainians to be conscripted.

I would ask them why it's the right thing to do, to extradite Ukrainians, and I'd ask why the same reasoning would not apply to their own troops.
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If you're really that puzzled why the same reasoning wouldn't apply to troops from NATO countries, maybe an understanding of how NATO works would be useful.

I'm certainly not banging the drum for Ukrainian nationals to be extradited and conscripted into their country's armed forces, but your suggestion that troops from eg NATO countries should be sent seems equally inappropriate.
 
andysays said:
If you're really that puzzled why the same reasoning wouldn't apply to troops from NATO countries, maybe an understanding of how NATO works would be useful.

I'm certainly not banging the drum for Ukrainian nationals to be extradited and conscripted into their country's armed forces, but your suggestion that troops from eg NATO countries should be sent seems equally inappropriate.
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I didn't say I was puzzled.
 
andysays said:
If you're really that puzzled why the same reasoning wouldn't apply to troops from NATO countries, maybe an understanding of how NATO works would be useful.

I'm certainly not banging the drum for Ukrainian nationals to be extradited and conscripted into their country's armed forces, but your suggestion that troops from eg NATO countries should be sent seems equally inappropriate.
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What do you think is the least bad solution to the problem of Ukraine running out of soldiers?
 
teuchter said:
What do you think is the least bad solution to the problem of Ukraine running out of soldiers?
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I'm not entirely convinced that Ukraine is genuinely "running out of soldiers", rather than this being another ploy by the Ukrainian government to get additional Western support.

But if they really are and if a significant factor in that really is large numbers of Ukrainians choosing to leave rather than fight, I don't think sending in troops from NATO countries is any sort of solution at all.
 
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