Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Dogsauce]

Quite a few people immediately after that footage was released pointed out the reflection of the missile on a car roof suggested it was fired from the west, therefore by the AFU. NYT has investigated and tend towards the same conclusion (although a "mishap" rather than the "false flag" narrative being peddled by the usual suspects).

https://archive.ph/O0nTu

Evidence Suggests Ukrainian Missile Caused Market Tragedy

Witness accounts and an analysis of video and weapon fragments suggest a Ukrainian missile failed to hit its intended target and landed in a bustling street, with devastating consequences.

www.nytimes.com

That was a Russian talking point that was debunked at the time, the explosion happens a few frames before the reflection appears so it’s likely something else. Strange that the NYT has run with it, but they have form for contrarian clickbait stuff.

 

[keybored]

the explosion happens a few frames before the reflection appears

The reflections appear just before the explosion, shown in the slowed down footage. There's other quite plausible evidence in the investigation too. I'd like to see the debunking.

 

[The39thStep]

Poland and its big army

Polish president on grain dispute: âUkraine is like a drowning man, it can drag us into the depthsâ

On Tuesday 19 September, Andrzej Duda, President of Poland, defended Warsawâs decision to impose unilateral restrictions on imports of Ukrainian agricultural products, which Kyiv is challenging at the World Trade Organisation.

www.pravda.com.ua

 

[StoneRoad]

according to livemap ...
Togo-flagged ship has been damaged by a sea mine in/near the Danube delta ...
[apology about the ex-twatter link]

 

[ska invita]

Poland and its big army

Polish president on grain dispute: âUkraine is like a drowning man, it can drag us into the depthsâ

On Tuesday 19 September, Andrzej Duda, President of Poland, defended Warsawâs decision to impose unilateral restrictions on imports of Ukrainian agricultural products, which Kyiv is challenging at the World Trade Organisation.

www.pravda.com.ua

tbf i think this is very much about upcoming elections next month and the angry polish farmers who have a lot of public support across the country...as opposed to a military comment. that said polish public support for the continuation of the war is less solid than some might imagine...the war has created incredibly high inflation for poland more so than many other countries and the near 2 million IIRC Ukrainian refugees are particularly sited as creating a big increase in housing costs. Id imagine public support for the war is very high from a theoretical point of view but people are hurting economically as a result

 

[The39thStep]

tbf i think this is very much about upcoming elections next month and the angry polish farmers who have a lot of public support across the country...as opposed to a military comment. that said polish public support for the continuation of the war is less solid than some might imagine...the war has created incredibly high inflation for poland more so than many other countries and the near 2 million IIRC Ukrainian refugees are particularly sited as creating a big increase in housing costs. Id imagine public support for the war is very high from a theoretical point of view but people are hurting economically as a result

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The big army was a reference to certain posters admiration of their military despite the government's politics

 

[StoneRoad]

The Polish people don't like the russian state, not the russian people, per se.
That's according to a number of Polish Esperantists my late father knew.

The Poles also watch the belarusians nearly as much, if not more, as they have a longer direct border with them.

 

[The39thStep]

The Polish people don't like the russian state, not the russian people, per se.
That's according to a number of Polish Esperantists my late father knew.

The Poles also watch the belarusians nearly as much, if not more, as they have a longer direct border with them.

This may be more up to date

 

[UnderOpenSky]

This may be more up to date

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Just the English eh? Scots, Irish and Welsh get a free pass.

 

[ska invita]

This may be more up to date

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anti "arab" sentiment is a particular disgrace - nothing new but sad to see the increase - the london has a a "muslim mayor"/great replacement stuff has even reached poland...i was hopeful that all the polish migration and repatriation that has taken place would change these attitudes for the better, but seems attitudes are going in the wrong direction across the board

 

[kabbes]

Just the English eh? Scots, Irish and Welsh get a free pass.

Feels bizarre to see a list of hated nationalities that the English aren’t top of.

 

[nogojones]

This may be more up to date

View attachment 392333

My old man always used to say the Poles were an unfriendly bunch and that it had absolutely nothing to do with the German army uniform he wearing at the time.

 

[Bingoman]

Just been reading sky news live text and they were saying Moscow evacuated civilians because what Azerbaijan are doing?

Ukraine war latest: Moscow evacuates civilians after launch of military operation by neighbour; fire at Russian oil tank

Azerbaijan, which neighbours Russia, has launched military action against Armenia; in a highly significant development, a grain ship has left Ukraine despite the threat of attack by Vladimir Putin's forces; Volodymyr Zelenskyy accused Russia of genocide at the UN General Assembly.

news.sky.com

 

[The39thStep]

anti "arab" sentiment is a particular disgrace - nothing new but sad to see the increase - the london has a a "muslim mayor"/great replacement stuff has even reached poland...i was hopeful that all the polish migration and repatriation that has taken place would change these attitudes for the better, but seems attitudes are going in the wrong direction across the board

I read a report sometime ago that suggested that Poles working in the U.K. had brought anti Muslim attitudes and in some cases agitation back to Poland which amplified prejudices.

 

[Chz]

Feels bizarre to see a list of hated nationalities that the English aren’t top of.

They're traditionally been quite friendly towards the Brits, always saw them as the ones that drew the line at Germany invading. Polish government in exile kept running in London up 'til the end of communism, loads of Polish pilots in the RAF, etc. Also very fond of the UK opening their borders to the East when the rest of the EU demurred.

 

[Cid]

I read a report sometime ago that suggested that Poles working in the U.K. had brought anti Muslim attitudes and in some cases agitation back to Poland which amplified prejudices.

From this paper I guess? I just found the ref through the wiki on Polish Islamophobia, haven't read (well, read the abstract). This isn't the full paper, but has a bit more in it I think (again, not read).

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283489703_Islamophobia_on_the_Move_Circulation_of_Anti-Muslim_Prejudice_between_Poland_and_the_UK

 

[ska invita]

They're traditionally been quite friendly towards the Brits, always saw them as the ones that drew the line at Germany invading. Polish government in exile kept running in London up 'til the end of communism, loads of Polish pilots in the RAF, etc. Also very fond of the UK opening their borders to the East when the rest of the EU demurred.

also Thatcher as antiCommunist hero (to some at least)

 

[The39thStep]

also Thatcher as antiCommunist hero (to some at least)

 

[The39thStep]

They're traditionally been quite friendly towards the Brits, always saw them as the ones that drew the line at Germany invading. Polish government in exile kept running in London up 'til the end of communism, loads of Polish pilots in the RAF, etc. Also very fond of the UK opening their borders to the East when the rest of the EU demurred.

Also Polish Jewish pre WW2 immigration to U.K.

 

[ska invita]

classic....
before my time but speaking to someone not that long ago they were saying that the UK left of the period seemed to have a bit of a misunderstanding about what Solidarnosc was really about and there was a fair bit of projection going on....and vice versa I wouldnt be surprised if Lech Walesa didnt really understand the implications of Thatcherism

...apologies for the derail

 

[Elpenor]

Did a management course with a Polish woman who when asked to give an example of an individual who had whatever leadership characteristic we were discussing that day answered Lech Walesa without fail.

 

[maomao]

classic....
before my time but speaking to someone not that long ago they were saying that the UK left of the period seemed to have a bit of a misunderstanding about what Solidarnosc was really about and there was a fair bit of projection going on....and vice versa I wouldnt be surprised if Lech Walesa didnt really understand the implications of Thatcherism

...apologies for the derail

Wasn't Thatcher's plan also to increase the import of coal from Poland? He may have just been being nice about a customer.

 

[ska invita]

Wasn't Thatcher's plan also to increase the import of coal from Poland? He may have just been being nice about a customer.

i'd like to think it was naivety rather than just greed...i've no real knowledge about this but i've heard people say walesa for all his qualities was easy to use

 

[The39thStep]

Wasn't Thatcher's plan also to increase the import of coal from Poland? He may have just been being nice about a customer.

Massive imports from Poland, some from Australia. There were pickets of the Polish Embassy. Walesa said something like the NUM had gone too far in trying to remove an elected government.

Like others on the non Soviet Union left I supported Solidarnosc but I must admit my heart sank when they backed Thatcher and he turned out to be a Tory not a socialism from below type.

 

[mojo pixy]

Just the English eh? Scots, Irish and Welsh get a free pass.

Like most people not from these islands I expect "english" is used as an umbrella term that includes scottish and welsh too.

 

[teuchter]

Like most people not from these islands I expect "english" is used as an umbrella term that includes scottish and welsh too.

Although this is true, when it is negative attributes that are being discussed, it is safe to assume that it is just the English who are being talked about.

 

[mojo pixy]

Although this is true, when it is negative attributes that are being discussed, it is safe to assume that it is just the English who are being talked about.

It's just one of those things isn't it, catalans being called 'spanish', sicilians 'italians', bretons 'french' etc. Must be annoying when a major part of your identity is simply ignored by 99% of humanity.

 

[kebabking]

Although this is true, when it is negative attributes that are being discussed, it is safe to assume that it is just the English who are being talked about.

Interesting to contrast this comment with dessiato's recent thread about how difficult he's found living in Lothian....

It would also be interesting to see what the reaction would be of it was used about a group of people who weren't English.

 

[teuchter]

It's just one of those things isn't it, catalans being called 'spanish', sicilians 'italians', bretons 'french' etc. Must be annoying when a major part of your identity is simply ignored by 99% of humanity.

It's actually not quite like most of those examples, because I think with all of those examples the smaller group is at least arguably a subcategory of the larger. But "Scottish" is definitively not a subcategory of "English". There's a perfectly usable category that contains both: British.

It's a little bit different with Wales of course, because it's not a real country, but for most purposes we just agree to gloss over that.

 

[TopCat]

I read a report sometime ago that suggested that Poles working in the U.K. had brought anti Muslim attitudes and in some cases agitation back to Poland which amplified prejudices.

The Guardian did an article on it.