Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[The39thStep]

I suppose we should be wary of simplistic interpretations, but that sounds very much like the US preparing to sell Ukraine down the river by agreeing a secret deal with Russia that they will keep parts of what they’ve seized in exchange for withdrawing. All conveniently in time for next year’s US elections.

I think there are a number of interpretations that can be made tbh and its just one article amongst many.

 

[existentialist]

<nothing but quote>

There's quite a good rule in the FAQ which talks about posting things without any comment. I can thoroughly recommend it to you.

 

[The39thStep]

It's not really the US talking to Russia. It's some weird think tank people who object to Ukraine fighting to take their territory back and want to present them with a negotiated fait accompli that forces them to take a deal they don't want, so everyone can quickly forget what Russia has done and get back to business as usual.

I don't know anything about Council on Foreign Relations , the think tank. I had a brief glance at their website before I posted but it was only a glance. Can you say a bit more about their objections to Ukraine regaining its territory, the negotiated fait accompli etc ?

 

[TopCat]

What it needs is for some British toffs to draw a straight line across the country, and be damned if that bisects a few towns along the way. That’ll settle it for good.

Draw a straight line but using a chipped ruler.

 

[StoneRoad]

Alternatively, follow the mid-line of a river ...
that has the drawback that natural watercourses can and do change their alignment, with or without human intervention.

 

[TopCat]

Ukraine war: Front-line troops discuss counter-offensive

Will Russia's defences shatter or hold firm? The BBC gets the view from Ukrainian soldiers on the front line.

www.bbc.co.uk

A good article with several perspectives on the likely outcome of the counter offensive.

Shocking to read of a soldier who had his lower leg blown off returning to the front lines (somehow). Even in WW2 an amputated leg would get you out of the fighting.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Ukraine war: Front-line troops discuss counter-offensive

Will Russia's defences shatter or hold firm? The BBC gets the view from Ukrainian soldiers on the front line.

www.bbc.co.uk

A good article with several perspectives on the likely outcome of the counter offensive.

Shocking to read of a soldier who had his lower leg blown off returning to the front lines (somehow). Even in WW2 an amputated leg would get you out of the fighting.

Unless you were Douglas Bader who had to get his prosthetics confiscated to stop him escaping

 

[editor]

Ukraine war: Front-line troops discuss counter-offensive

Will Russia's defences shatter or hold firm? The BBC gets the view from Ukrainian soldiers on the front line.

www.bbc.co.uk

A good article with several perspectives on the likely outcome of the counter offensive.

Shocking to read of a soldier who had his lower leg blown off returning to the front lines (somehow). Even in WW2 an amputated leg would get you out of the fighting.

That's the kind of desperate measures people do when their country has been illegally invaded by war criminals who are stealing their property, killing their children and civilians, and destroying homes, restaurants, shops, nurseries, hospitals and schools.

And it's ridiculous to compare the impact of injuries today with WW2 as prosthetics have improved immeasurably, to the point where double amputees can live a fairly normal life and even run marathons.

 

[The39thStep]

That's the kind of desperate measures people do when their country has been illegally invaded by war criminals who are stealing their property, killing their children and civilians, and destroying homes, restaurants, shops, nurseries, hospitals and schools.

And it's ridiculous to compare the impact of injuries today with WW2 as prosthetics have improved immeasurably, to the point where double amputees can live a fairly normal life and even run marathons.

I bookmarked this article in The Telegraph about the scale of amputees and there treatment ( on the Ukraine side ) since the war started.

https://archive.ph/wHW9q

 

[Pickman's model]

That's the kind of desperate measures people do when their country has been illegally invaded by war criminals who are stealing their property, killing their children and civilians, and destroying homes, restaurants, shops, nurseries, hospitals and schools.

And it's ridiculous to compare the impact of injuries today with WW2 as prosthetics have improved immeasurably, to the point where double amputees can live a fairly normal life and even run marathons.

Right. And Ukraine has a) med evac, b) sufficient skilled surgeons, c) a great fund of these prosthetics? Tbh what's changed in some militaries, in particular the US armed forces, is the speed with which wounded soldiers are taken to treatment. Wounds which would have killed in the past can be survived. But the number of us veterans who kill themselves after might - ought - to give you pause for thought about whether there are prosthetics for the mind. Get well soon, said the editor. Yes sir I will said the injured soldier

 

[teqniq]

I don't care how it's spun, this is not good. It's come about because of a dwindling supply of regular munitions apparently:

Biden approves cluster munition supply to Ukraine

 

[Artaxerxes]

I don't care how it's spun, this is not good. It's come about because of a dwindling supply of regular munitions apparently:

Biden approves cluster munition supply to Ukraine

It’s grim stuff and not something we should be happy about but a small mercy is the amount of ordnance being thrown about means it’s going to have a smaller impact than it would have otherwise

Russia of course has been shitting out cluster bombs and mines since the start so the post war cleanup is going to take decades if it’s ever done at all - similar to the hazards of farming in France and Belgium battlefields

 

[Raheem]

Back channel, track 2, 'casual' discussions, testing the water but Biden's been briefed. 'Nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine'

Former U.S. officials have held secret Ukraine talks with Russians

The aim of the discussions is to lay the groundwork for potential negotiations to end the war, people briefed on the talks told NBC News.

www.nbcnews.com

The fact that this has been leaked surely suggests it produced nothing and went nowhere, because otherwise the act of letting the world know would destroy trust.

 

[The39thStep]

The fact that this has been leaked surely suggests it produced nothing and went nowhere, because otherwise the act of letting the world know would destroy trust.

Possibly, however, alliances are normally formed on the basis of the management of mistrust.

 

[planetgeli]

It’s grim stuff and not something we should be happy about but a small mercy is the amount of ordnance being thrown about means it’s going to have a smaller impact than it would have otherwise

Russia of course has been shitting out cluster bombs and mines since the start so the post war cleanup is going to take decades if it’s ever done at all - similar to the hazards of farming in France and Belgium battlefields

50 people a year in Laos still die from uxo. 1000 in the last 14 years. They are mainly farmers. There are approximately 80 million uxo still left, because around a third of the 270 million dropped (many of them cluster bombs) didn't explode. Last year MAG cleared their 300,000th. So still some way to go.

And Laos wasn't even in the war.

It remains the most bombed country, per capita, in the world.

 

[Artaxerxes]

50 people a year in Laos still die from uxo. 1000 in the last 14 years. They are mainly farmers. There are approximately 80 million uxo still left, because around a third of the 270 million dropped (many of them cluster bombs) didn't explode. Last year MAG cleared their 300,000th. So still some way to go.

And Laos wasn't even in the war.

It remains the most bombed country, per capita, in the world.

Like I said, its fucking grim and not something we should be happy about.

There are small mercies but its still shit.

Laos was a warcrime and America should eat fucking ashes for it.

 

[Chz]

The only certainty is that Russia will not stop targeting, killing, maiming, raping, and kidnapping Ukrainian citizens until they are forced to do so.

Ukraine deserves the tools to accomplish that as speedily as possible. Once that has been accomplished, they deserve the tools to clean up the disaster left in this war's wake.

 

[redsquirrel]

And in your view those tools include cluster bombs of their own?

Ukraine deserves the tools to accomplish that as speedily as possible.

This is one of those statements that falls apart as soon as one looks at it. Nuclear weapons? Chemical weapons? Biological weapons? If these accomplish the defeat of Russia more quickly you're happy with their use?

 

[The39thStep]

Chemical weapons now

 

[sleaterkinney]

And in your view those tools include cluster bombs of their own?


This is one of those statements that falls apart as soon as one looks at it. Nuclear weapons? Chemical weapons? Biological weapons? If these accomplish the defeat of Russia more quickly you're happy with their use?

Well, as long as we don't escalate things..

 

[Raheem]

Well, as long as we don't escalate things..

Absolutely. We must draw the line at escalators.

 

[Pickman's model]

Chemical weapons now

Tuc get off your knees chemical weapons now?

 

[WouldBe]

Absolutely. We must draw the line at escalators.

Could be difficult dropping escalators.

 

[Raheem]

Could be difficult dropping escalators.

Easier if you do it one step at a time.

 

[The39thStep]

Tuc get off your knees chemical weapons now?

For a Workers Bomb

 

[Pickman's model]

For a Workers Bomb

If shammer gets in maybe he'll be shown a few workers' bums in a great moon against the vile turd

 

[Chz]

And in your view those tools include cluster bombs of their own?


This is one of those statements that falls apart as soon as one looks at it. Nuclear weapons? Chemical weapons? Biological weapons? If these accomplish the defeat of Russia more quickly you're happy with their use?

Oh spare me exaggerating for effect. We probably shouldn't let them drop asteroids on Crimea, either.

Cluster munitions have been in use since Day One of the war on both sides. No-one is going to escalate to banned weapons, even in the extremely unlikely situation that Ukraine would want to use them on their own territory. This is handing them more and better versions of weapons they already have and are running short of.

 

[TopCat]

That's the kind of desperate measures people do when their country has been illegally invaded by war criminals who are stealing their property, killing their children and civilians, and destroying homes, restaurants, shops, nurseries, hospitals and schools.

And it's ridiculous to compare the impact of injuries today with WW2 as prosthetics have improved immeasurably, to the point where double amputees can live a fairly normal life and even run marathons.

Your comments are like you are 14 and never read a newspaper.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Oh spare me exaggerating for effect. We probably shouldn't let them drop asteroids on Crimea, either.

Cluster munitions have been in use since Day One of the war on both sides. No-one is going to escalate to banned weapons, even in the extremely unlikely situation that Ukraine would want to use them on their own territory. This is handing them more and better versions of weapons they already have and are running short of.

Genuine question. Probably for kebabking? But does modern artillery strikes leave the same footprint. There's certainly no air power to deploy cluster bombs that way.

 

[TopCat]

Having soldiers fighting who are in their sixth decade, some with one leg just shows the failure of leadership.