Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[ska invita]

Honestly fuck those Russian conscripts that got shelled waiting for their general. And fuck any Russian soldier in Ukraine. The more that die the better and the sooner this war will end. You cant negotiate from a point of weakness only from strength. Even conscripted you have agency as an adult sent into battle. Not like the civilians in Bucha or the tens of thousands missing in Mariopol or the millions displaced by sudden war on their doorstep. Many killed or brutalised before they had any idea what was happening.

Hundreds of people dying is not funny. It is tragic. Poor bastards after all. But every Russian casualty is a step in a more positive direction in this conflict. You can't win a war any other way. And the alternative is much worse.

please save your vengeance for the top brass professional murderers in all the worlds armies who orchestrate illegal invasions, not the conscripts - would be great to think mass conscientious objection would break out in the conscripted ranks but have a think why that never happens and what it would take to create a culture that does.

 

[Pickman's model]

That was "good" bombing though as they used smart munitions.

we've been through this before. more than a year ago. Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-23

 

[ska invita]

Correct. It was too good, even.

the idea Iraqi people werent shocked or awed about being invaded bombed tortured and starved leading to over a million deaths is repulsive

 

[ska invita]

too good

BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | US strikes raze Falluja hospital

news.bbc.co.uk

Baghdad hospital bombed

· US forces '19 miles from capital' · Saddam defiant in TV statement · UK 'will not attack Iran and Syria'

www.theguardian.com

 

[Pickman's model]

That was "good" bombing though as they used smart munitions.

further to my previous post 'Dumb' bombs used to topple Saddam

 

[Pickman's model]

the idea Iraqi people werent shocked or awed about being invaded bombed tortured and starved leading to over a million deaths is repulsive

sorry, you have it wrong - bombed, starved, bombed, tortured, bombed.

 

[LDC]

please save your vengeance for the top brass professional murderers in all the worlds armies who orchestrate illegal invasions, not the conscripts - would be great to think mass conscientious objection would break out in the conscripted ranks but have a think why that never happens and what it would take to create a culture that does.

I don't think it's that simple I'm afraid. Conscripts can (and have in Ukraine) behaved terribly, maybe even committing the bulk of the war crimes. I think it's possible to have a range of emotions and poltiical positions that doesn't let conscripts off the hook for participating in these things, while also holding the politicians and higher ranking officers ultimately more responsible.

If there had been limited and/or failed Ukrainian resistance to the Russian invasion do you think in the Russian military they'd be more or less general dissent, refusal to fight and desertion?

 

[Cid]

I don't think it's that simple I'm afraid. Conscripts can (and have in Ukraine) behaved terribly, maybe even committing the bulk of the war crimes. I think it's possible to have a range of emotions and poltiical positions that doesn't let conscripts off the hook for participating in these things, while also holding the politicians and higher ranking officers ultimately more responsible.

If there had been limited and/or failed Ukrainian resistance to the Russian invasion do you think in the Russian military they'd be more or less general dissent, refusal to fight and desertion?

Not quite sure that's possible? Most of the known war crimes, at least ones where soldiers are directly involved (as opposed to artillery, missiles strikes etc), happened early on in the invasion... Mobilisation wasn't until late 2022, and iirc it wasn't legally possible to use conscripts until that point. I may be forgetting something; possible those serving as conscripts at the time were mobilised earlier, but certainly the vast majority of conscripts weren't active until fairly recently. Obviously this is partly just a lack of opportunity, and we have little information on what's going on in occupied Ukraine. But it seems a stretch to say 'maybe even committing the bulk of the war crimes' when afaik conscripts weren't actually deployed for Bucha, Mariupol etc. Certainly the soldiers it's often used as shorthand for; the 'mobiks', those drawn from republics, krais etc weren't deployed until recently.

 

[LDC]

Not quite sure that's possible? Most of the known war crimes, at least ones where soldiers are directly involved (as opposed to artillery, missiles strikes etc), happened early on in the invasion... Mobilisation wasn't until late 2022, and iirc it wasn't legally possible to use conscripts until that point. I may be forgetting something; possible those serving as conscripts at the time were mobilised earlier, but certainly the vast majority of conscripts weren't active until fairly recently. Obviously this is partly just a lack of opportunity, and we have little information on what's going on in occupied Ukraine. But it seems a stretch to say 'maybe even committing the bulk of the war crimes' when afaik conscripts weren't actually deployed for Bucha, Mariupol etc. Certainly the soldiers it's often used as shorthand for; the 'mobiks', those drawn from republics, krais etc weren't deployed until recently.

FWIW I don't draw quite a clear and easy line between the importance of soldiers being conscripts or volunteer anyway due to the economic situations that lead to people 'volunteer' under huge external pressures anyway, and I think the whole over importance given to 'free will/choice' is largely just a liberal western one.

 

[teuchter]

Even if there are conscripts that have committed war crimes that's no reason to justify some kind of revenge on russian conscripts in general is it?

 

[Riklet]

The Bolsheviks and the Russian revolution only had any success at all because the war was such a catastrophic failure. Such gigantic losses and poor leadership. Obviously things 106 years later have partly changed.. but not completely. Things shifted from pro war nationalism to radical violent descent in 3 years.

I also dont buy this idea that conscripted soliders are innocent saints. Like I said, war is hell. Good people do bad things. People copy what others are doing. I bet all the Russian solders raping and shooting people last year weren't all evil people... but yet those things still happened.

The comparison with Iraq I suspected someone would dig up. But then youd have to equate the Ukranian regime and government with Sadam Hussain. I dont really see any point in debating this angle personally, I was totally against that illegal war just as I am this one. But its obviously a lot lot lot easier to defend Ukranian resistance and government compared to Sadam.

 

[LDC]

Even if there are conscripts that have committed war crimes that's no reason to justify some kind of revenge on russian conscripts in general is it?

Speaking for myself it's not revenge, I think thinking of their deaths purely pragmatically; the strike weakens the Russian military and it means less soldiers to fight for the Russian State, which hopefully makes it more likely to lose, which ultimately I think is the better of all the shit outcomes. So I'm pleased that strike happened and was so destructive for the Russian military.

 

[Rob Ray]

Most of the soldiers in the Russian Army at the start of the conflict were doing obligatory military service, it's not like the British all-volunteer forces. Regardless though, war is war. It creates conditions that encourage and enable monstrous behaviours, and conscripts aren't somehow immune from being drawn into participating or even leading such.

It is possible to be both sympathetic towards the vast majority of the poor sods involved who are no doubt just trying to get through the day without getting a limb blown off, and note that anyone, from any part of either army, can have acted/might in future act like a scumbag.

 

[LDC]

Most of the soldiers in the Russian Army at the start of the conflict were doing obligatory military service, it's not like the British all-volunteer forces. Regardless though, war is war. It creates conditions that encourage and enable monstrous behaviours, and conscripts aren't somehow immune from being drawn into participating or even leading such.

It is possible to be both sympathetic towards the vast majority of the poor sods involved who are no doubt just trying to get through the day without getting a limb blown off, and note that anyone, from any part of either army, can have acted/might in future act like a scumbag.

And counter-intuitively (iirc) professional/volunteer soldiers had a higher rate of desertion and resistance to the war in Vietnam.

The olive drab rebels: military organising during the Vietnam era - Matthew Rinaldi

This article is a detailed account of soldiers' and sailors' resistance to the Vietnam War in the 1960s and 1970s.

libcom.org

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

And counter-intuitively (iirc) professional/volunteer soldiers had a higher rate of desertion and resistance to the war in Vietnam.

The olive drab rebels: military organising during the Vietnam era - Matthew Rinaldi

This article is a detailed account of soldiers' and sailors' resistance to the Vietnam War in the 1960s and 1970s.

libcom.org

Maybe that's because so many American draft dodgers had the time and inclination to leave the country completely and never got actually drafted. Whereas existing soldiers could only desert or disobey.

 

[Pickman's model]

The Bolsheviks and the Russian revolution only had any success at all because the war was such a catastrophic failure. Such gigantic losses and poor leadership. Obviously things 106 years later have partly changed.. but not completely. Things shifted from pro war nationalism to radical violent descent in 3 years.

I also dont buy this idea that conscripted soliders are innocent saints. Like I said, war is hell. Good people do bad things. People copy what others are doing. I bet all the Russian solders raping and shooting people last year weren't all evil people... but yet those things still happened.

The comparison with Iraq I suspected someone would dig up. But then youd have to equate the Ukranian regime and government with Sadam Hussain. I dont really see any point in debating this angle personally, I was totally against that illegal war just as I am this one. But its obviously a lot lot lot easier to defend Ukranian resistance and government compared to Sadam.

that really is utter bollocks. the 1917 revolutions (february and october) were preceded by both the 1905 revolt and a century of attempts at reform and revolution. and it's often forgotten that lenin was sent back to russia by the germans doubtless with a fuckton of berlin gold. i'm sure those who had the opportunity to experience both conflicts would have felt that the russian civil war gave the first world war a close run for its money.

your final paragraph is so ghastly that i am surprised you had the front to post such vacuous nonsense. there is no need to equate zelensky with saddam hussein - the comparison is that the russians as the americans did in 2003 are waging aggressive war for regime change. i don't know which nether regions of your bowels produced the necessity for the zelensky / saddam hussein equation, but it's so obviously both a fallacy and a phallacy - in that it makes you look a massive dick - that i can only hope your great cesspit of a post is provoking remorse now.

 

[The39thStep]

the whole over importance given to 'free will/choice' is largely just a liberal western one

Can you unpack this a little more, please?

 

[Pickman's model]

FWIW I don't draw quite as clear and easy line between the importance of soldiers being conscripts or volunteer anyway due to the economic situations that lead to people 'volunteer' under huge external pressures anyway, and I think the whole over importance given to 'free will/choice' is largely just a liberal western one.

usually the dichotomy is free will v predestination, which is more of a christian debate than a liberal one

 

[LDC]

Can you unpack this a little more, please?

Will try....

Nothing massively new, just kicking back on the idea that people are just 'free' individuals making choices largely devoid of external factors. This is much more prevalent in Western industrialised countries where even among the left we are so drenched in the ideology of capitalism and we struggle to see how much what we see as 'normal' and ahistorical is actually very culturally, and also a bit class background specific as to how much 'choice' plays a part in our lives. In some cultures and religions families and patriarchy plays a much bigger role in what people do than just what they want to themselves for example.

So with the volunteer / professional military debate I'd argue that someone from a very poor area where the military recruit heavily, and who has little good economic or social mobility prospects with a background of poor educational achievements might well 'volunteer' but I think the fact they have is largely unimportant in making some clear distinction between them and conscripted soldiers as some do.

 

[The39thStep]

Will try....

Nothing massively new, just kicking back on the idea that people are just 'free' individuals making choices largely devoid of external factors. This is much more prevalent in Western industrialised countries where even among the left we are so drenched in the ideology of capitalism and we struggle to see how much what we see as 'normal' and ahistorical is actually very culturally, and also a bit class background specific as to how much 'choice' plays a part in our lives. In some cultures and religions families and patriarchy plays a much bigger role in what people do than just what they want to themselves for example.

So with the volunteer / professional military debate I'd argue that someone from a very poor area where the military recruit heavily, and who has little good economic or social mobility prospects with background of poor educational achievements might well 'volunteer' but I think the fact they have is largely unimportant in making some clear distinction between them and conscripted soldiers as some do.

I'd call, this capitalist ideology tbh and yes probably classically liberal.

 

[LDC]

Sure there's come much better and cleverer way of talking about this to do with the Enlightenment and philosophy etc. but that's beyond my brain. kabbes?

 

[belboid]

Sure there's come much better and cleverer way of talking about this to do with the Enlightenment and philosophy etc. but that's beyond my brain. kabbes?

the idea that one can make entirely 'free' choices is an enlightenment one, but, as you rightly point out, its a load of bollocks. Same as with 'free' movement or 'free' association, they are highly limited - 'not in circumstances of ones own choosing' as someone almost said

 

[maomao]

Seeing as we're well off track anyway I might as well tell this here. I had a new assistant at work to help some of my Ukrainian students so after introdutions I gave her a cheery 'slava ukraini' to which she replied 'actually I'm Russian'. Didn't know where to go with that so I just said 'well slava ukraini anyway and tried out the very little Russian that I know.

 

[existentialist]

Even if there are conscripts that have committed war crimes that's no reason to justify some kind of revenge on russian conscripts in general is it?

The attack this is all about was never about revenge - that's an after-the-fact construction we're putting on it.

It was, quite simply, a military decision to eliminate a part of the enemy's resources. War is shit.

 

[teuchter]

I also dont buy this idea that conscripted soliders are innocent saints.

No-one has suggested that they are. Just that a load of them getting killed isn't hilarious.

 

[teuchter]

The attack this is all about was never about revenge - that's an after-the-fact construction we're putting on it

And no-one has suggested the attack was motivated by revenge.

The attack was a pragmatic military decision. Yes. Nothing about it was funny though.

 

[The39thStep]

Seeing as we're well off track anyway I might as well tell this here. I had a new assistant at work to help some of my Ukrainian students so after introdutions I gave her a cheery 'slava ukraini' to which she replied 'actually I'm Russian'. Didn't know where to go with that so I just said 'well slava ukraini anyway and tried out the very little Russian that I know.

I said 'slava ukraini' to my friend Tetiana's parents when I was leaving their house after meeting them the first time and they smiled. She later told me that they don't speak Ukrainian and although I wasn't to know it wasn't a popular slogan where they came from. There's a Ukrainian bloke who works at the bakery who has a bit of a drink problem and when I said it to him he gave me a military salute of some sort. Mind you he was also the one who greeted me with 'Thank you, Boris Johnson'.

 

[Flavour]

they've got you down as potential Azov now, The39thStep

 

[LDC]

There's a Ukrainian bloke who works at the bakery who has a bit of a drink problem and when I said it to him he gave me a military salute of some sort. Mind you he was also the one who greeted me with 'Thank you, Boris Johnson'.

I had you down as sinewy, tall and dark haired, not tubby, short and blonde?

 

[The39thStep]

I had you down as sinewy, tall and dark haired, not tubby, short and blonde?

Beer gut tall and grey I'm afraid.