Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[andysays]

For me, what is funny is that a Russian divisional commander thinks that he can deploy his force out into the open, during a period of high intensity warfare, and have it stand still for two hours without negative consequences.

That the standing around was waiting for him to rock up and deliver a morale boosting speech isn't just funny, it's fucking hilarious.

A Russian divisional commander delivering a morale boosting speech recently...

 

[Yossarian]

Hillsborough was very tragic sure but it was pretty funny seeing the police mess up.

Seems kind of fucked up to be drawing parallels between Hillsborough victims etc. and members of an occupying army that has committed monstrous war crimes

 

[mojo pixy]

Seems kind of fucked up to be drawing parallels between Hillsborough victims etc. and members of an occupying army that has committed monstrous war crimes

Grenfell too ffs.

Now, if the Conservative cabinet had been the people that died in Grenfell instead or say, the owners of the building who skimped on maintenance, maybe....

 

[RedRedRose]

they don't give a shit about Ukraine, and there's a very significant Russian (Soviet holdover?) Influence/sympathy in SA/ZPF - what they aren't not, is neutral, nor indeed to they have any influence on either party, or China, the west.

"Neutral" SA: the ANC Youth League has endorsed the annexation of Ukraine; there is an enquiry over whether SA supplied Russia with arms after an American envoy said they did; they have also undertaken recent military gatherings and naval exercises with Russia; in addition, SA was also looking at changing their laws to give Putin and others diplomatic immunity to attend a BRICS event there.

 

[Dogsauce]

And yet there's no mention of missile attacks on any other Ukrainian city. Seems very suss to me.

Some of the African delegation likely gave them some up-to-date targeting information and they were quick to act upon it…

 

[Sweet FA]

Seems kind of fucked up to be drawing parallels between Hillsborough victims etc. and members of an occupying army that has committed monstrous war crimes

Grenfell too ffs.

Now, if the Conservative cabinet had been the people that died in Grenfell instead or say, the owners of the building who skimped on maintenance, maybe....

 

[tim]

Some of the African delegation likely gave them some up-to-date targeting information and they were quick to act upon it…

I'm sure that neither the Russian regime is not short of informants in Kyiv, nor the Ukrainian regime short of informants in Moscow. Do you have a particular issue with Africans?

 

[tim]

Seems kind of fucked up to be drawing parallels between Hillsborough victims etc. and members of an occupying army that has committed monstrous war crimes

Seems kind of fucked up laughing about the death conscripts who had no choice about being where they were at the time of their death.

 

[Yossarian]

Seems kind of fucked up laughing about the death conscripts who had no choice about being where they were at the time of their death.

I don't know why people are assuming that the soldiers killed in this attack - if it even happened, not sure how reliable these Russian bloggers are - were helpless conscripts as trapped as Hillsborough victims were, do divisional commanders generally give pep talks to soldiers considered cannon fodder?

The attack reportedly hit members of the 20th Combined Arms Army, which has been operating in Ukraine since the invasion began and has been linked to plenty of war crimes.

 

[kabbes]

I can’t laugh at the event but, at the same time, I can’t regret it either. The nature of war is that each side tries to kill each other’s soldiers. The war won’t end until one side has suffered sufficient deaths of soldiers that it is untenable for them to continue. Given that reality, and given that I do want Russia to be forced out of Ukraine, it would be hypocritical of me to wring my hands at the death of Russian solders. Frankly, better that they die in one go with minimal other loss of life than they die in combination with an equal number of Ukrainian soldiers plus lots of civilians in an extended series of battles.

 

[teuchter]

I don't think that deciding an incident isn't one to laugh at, really amounts to hand-wringing though. For me it's part of being absolutely careful not to regard war as some sort of game or entertainment, or to encourage anyone else to do so.

 

[kebabking]

Po-faced crap.

Something can be funny within a tragic event. An aspect of a tragic event can be funny.

I think it's fucking hilarious that 18 months into a war where Artillery and ISTAR has been the main vehicle of destruction on all sides, a divisional commander (30 years of training and experience) thinks it's fine to park his HQ in the open for two hours while they wait for him to deliver a speech.

It's dumber than a fucking housebrick. It's also funny as fuck because it says some very bad things about the mentality of this particular individual.

It's funny as fuck that I shit myself in a sleeping bag in a FOB in Afghanistan - I'd been out on a OP job for 3 weeks eating nothing but biscuits and pouch meals. I'd got back to the FOB, sorted my gear out, had a wash, scoffed a load of watermelon as my first fresh food in weeks, went to bed and an hour later my eyes flashed open. There was a terrible pain in my belly and before I could move my hands to the zip of my sleeping bag a hose of wild, uncontainable explosive diarrhea shot out of my arse. That's funny. I was laughing my head off while washing myself down with a bucket of water and a cloth - I burned my sleeping bag.

One of my closest friends was dead within an hour of that. It was a devastating tragedy and an absolute waste of a wonderful, loving, kind man who would set off uncontrollable giggles in everyone he met simply with a grin, or a wink.

The day was funny, and tragic. It's quite possible for both of those things to be true at the same time.

 

[teuchter]

Seems kind of fucked up to be drawing parallels between Hillsborough victims etc. and members of an occupying army that has committed monstrous war crimes

The soldiers should have expressed their concerns about the human rights record of their employer, to some senior officers, informed them of their resignation, and gone home.

 

[teuchter]

Po-faced crap.

Something can be funny within a tragic event. An aspect of a tragic event can be funny.

I think it's fucking hilarious that 18 months into a war where Artillery and ISTAR has been the main vehicle of destruction on all sides, a divisional commander (30 years of training and experience) thinks it's fine to park his HQ in the open for two hours while they wait for him to deliver a speech.

It's dumber than a fucking housebrick. It's also funny as fuck because it says some very bad things about the mentality of this particular individual.

It's funny as fuck that I shit myself in a sleeping bag in a FOB in Afghanistan - I'd been out on a OP job for 3 weeks eating nothing but biscuits and pouch meals. I'd got back to the FOB, sorted my gear out, had a wash, scoffed a load of watermelon as my first fresh food in weeks, went to bed and an hour later my eyes flashed open. There was a terrible pain in my belly and before I could move my hands to the zip of my sleeping bag a hose of wild, uncontainable explosive diarrhea shot out of my arse. That's funny. I was laughing my head off while washing myself down with a bucket of water and a cloth - I burned my sleeping bag.

One of my closest friends was dead within an hour of that. It was a devastating tragedy and an absolute waste of a wonderful, loving, kind man who would set off uncontrollable giggles in everyone he met simply with a grin, or a wink.

The day was funny, and tragic. It's quite possible for both of those things to be true at the same time.

I don't see how your story about that day has any relevance at all to what we're discussing here which is people sat in the UK saying that the incompetence (or perhaps simple callous disregard for life) of military command that resulted in the death of a load of young men, probably including many conscripted against their will, probably including many who joined the military in peacetime due to a lack of alternatives thanks to having been born in one of the world's most broken societies is "funny".

 

[mojo pixy]

View attachment 379571

lol meme as point ... so go on, what is the point?

 

[mojo pixy]

Seems kind of fucked up laughing about the death conscripts who had no choice about being where they were at the time of their death.

No choice? None? What is the punishment for draft dodging, in Russia? Are there any alternatives? We're these soldiers literally forced at gunpoint to join? Could any of them conceivably have been elsewhere? If they hadn't died, what would they have been doing this week, working for the red cross maybe? Helping refugees? etc.

 

[Sweet FA]

lol meme as point ... so go on, what is the point?

It's not funny is the point.

 

[mojo pixy]

War is shit, this is shit, that is shit, the whole thing is shit. Pointing judgemental fingers at those who are having a wry schadenfreude smile is 1000% missing the point of what happened, is happening, how, why, and what it means. None of this is 'funny', that was exactly my point.

 

[Sweet FA]

You don't find it funny. Nor do I. Some on this thread do. That's where this depressing little excursion started.

I don't necessarily include forces/ex-forces in that tbh. Fucked up situation breeds fucked up sense of humour. Medics find humour in some dark places too.

 

[mojo pixy]

That's true. Laughing at pain and death is frequently a coping mechanism for people who encounter a lot of those things. In some ways laughter is an evolved response to fearful situations so even those of us who are terrified of where this might go, might find ourselves occasionally laughing darkly, too horrified to be sad or angry at that moment because it's just too fucking much and who knows what I might do if I let that much sadness and anger out all at once? So I dig even deeper, find the darkest fucking place where I can laugh, because I might be dead in 18 months.

That kind of thing.

 

[Sweet FA]

Yes, and others find solace in wanking over tanks. War does strange things to a person.

 

[Cid]

No choice? None? What is the punishment for draft dodging, in Russia? Are there any alternatives? We're these soldiers literally forced at gunpoint to join? Could any of them conceivably have been elsewhere? If they hadn't died, what would they have been doing this week, working for the red cross maybe? Helping refugees? etc.

I'm guessing we don't have many urbanites from small town Buryatia who might be able to give properly insightful answers to those questions.

 

[Pickman's model]

Seems kind of fucked up laughing about the death conscripts who had no choice about being where they were at the time of their death.

It's all fucked up

 

[The39thStep]

That's true. Laughing at pain and death is frequently a coping mechanism for people who encounter a lot of those things. In some ways laughter is an evolved response to fearful situations so even those of us who are terrified of where this might go, might find ourselves occasionally laughing darkly, too horrified to be sad or angry at that moment because it's just too fucking much and who knows what I might do if I let that much sadness and anger out all at once? So I dig even deeper, find the darkest fucking place where I can laugh, because I might be dead in 18 months.

That kind of thing.

Must be truly harrowing being a poster on this thread tbh.

 

[A380]

Well, I'm going to try and hope that what varies is how much people actually think about stuff before deciding it's funny.

Because it's a bleak world in which the incompetence or negligence of the decision makers in the Russian military is something that a significant number of people can think of as "funny". Given its visible consequences.

Everyone who died of Covid in the UK because of the incompetence of decision makers in authority - would we say, oh well it was tragic they died but it was pretty funny how the tories/NHS/care homes screwed up!

Hillsborough was very tragic sure but it was pretty funny seeing the police mess up.

The Grenfell enquiry was hilarious, all those bits about professional negligence, once you set aside the tragic outcomes.

If those things aren't funny then why not? Is it because the perpetrators and victims can't be put in a box together as the bad guys?

It was "the Russians". This is how wars are possible in the first place isn't it? The change in thinking that can occur once an enemy can be identified en masse.

It's all the same basic reason I've previously objected to people using terms like "Russkis".

I am going to reply to one of your posts sensibly for once.

I genuinely envy the lives of people who have been so far removed from having to deal with death, and pain and blood and shit that they can hold such a view about the role of humour in surviving such work and being able to keep on doing it.

 

[teuchter]

I am going to reply to one of your posts sensibly for once.

I genuinely envy the lives of people who have been so far removed from having to deal with death, and pain and blood and shit that they can hold such a view about the role of humour in surviving such work and being able to keep on doing it.

Once again I've underestimated the toll that the work of buying t-shirts and posting memes can take on a person, due to being so spoilt that I've never been forced to take on such duties myself.

 

[ohmyliver]

That's true. Laughing at pain and death is frequently a coping mechanism for people who encounter a lot of those things. In some ways laughter is an evolved response to fearful situations so even those of us who are terrified of where this might go, might find ourselves occasionally laughing darkly, too horrified to be sad or angry at that moment because it's just too fucking much and who knows what I might do if I let that much sadness and anger out all at once? So I dig even deeper, find the darkest fucking place where I can laugh, because I might be dead in 18 months.

That kind of thing.

True enough, my father's nickname on the cancer ward in Hammersmith Hospital he was on when he had one of his bouts of chemo was 'Terry Waite' because he was in for so long. When he was in his cancer's final stages, the doctor would greet him everyday with 'what? you're still here? we've not managed to kill you yet? which they'd both find hilarious. My mum not so much.

 

[Yossarian]

The soldiers should have expressed their concerns about the human rights record of their employer, to some senior officers, informed them of their resignation, and gone home.

Obviously any soldier in the Russian military who objects to all the torture, rape, and murder of civilians has some awful choices to make, the penalties for desertion or refusing to fight are severe.

But if the ones in this case had done so, they probably wouldn't be dead, and I hope that's something their surviving colleagues keep in mind

 

[gosub]

For me, what is funny is that a Russian divisional commander thinks that he can deploy his force out into the open, during a period of high intensity warfare, and have it stand still for two hours without negative consequences.

That the standing around was waiting for him to rock up and deliver a morale boosting speech isn't just funny, it's fucking hilarious.

Can't have been his call, that's green troops on a very sharp learning curve

 

[Pickman's model]

Can't have been his call, that's green troops on a very sharp learning curve

everyone knows that punctuality in courtesy to other people. leaving them standing about for a couple of hours was his call, whose call do you think it was?