Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Pickman's model]

But some rights are required for socialism to work as well. If you do away with seperation of powers and legal protection of basic democratic rights after using them for the revolution (which is what I mean by liberal institutions), then all that will happen is the leadership will then abuse their power, make themselves impossible to remove, and then restore capitalism to benefit themselves. This is exactly what happened over the 20th Century.

Even if you envision some form of Council Communism or syndicalism, you still need to have separation of powers to ensure that elections are overseen fairly, and you still need to legally protect the right to free speech and assembly otherwise there is nothing to stop people in power - even if elected - from repressing criticism and critics of themselves. So democratic norms are a good in and of themselves. You need to have them as a precondition for socialism to work otherwise you just repeat the 20th Century again. If it doesn't go through this stage, then democratic revolution must necessarily be a part of a socialist revolution.

Tosh. Tosh and piffle. You mistake laws and structures for something meaningful like they withstand tyrants on their own when everything around us tells a very different story, that laws and structures can and will be changed if people don't assert themselves.

 

[Rimbaud]

Tosh. Tosh and piffle. You mistake laws and structures for something meaningful like they withstand tyrants on their own when everything around us tells a very different story, that laws and structures can and will be changed if people don't assert themselves.

Yeah people need to assert themselves but the structures are still important. If x government has exclusive oversight of how voting is conducted then it is predictable how that would go.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I hope Ukraine starts escalating their counter offensive soon, so this thread can get back on topic, instead of all these mega boring off topic derails.

And, in the hope they can push back the Russians enough to bring this war to an end, and stop the pointless loss of lives on both sides.

 

[redsquirrel]

But some rights are required for socialism to work as well. If you do away with seperation of powers and legal protection of basic democratic rights after using them for the revolution (which is what I mean by liberal institutions), then all that will happen is the leadership will then abuse their power, make themselves impossible to remove, and then restore capitalism to benefit themselves. This is exactly what happened over the 20th Century.

Even if you envision some form of Council Communism or syndicalism, you still need to have separation of powers to ensure that elections are overseen fairly, and you still need to legally protect the right to free speech and assembly otherwise there is nothing to stop people in power - even if elected - from repressing criticism and critics of themselves. So democratic norms are a good in and of themselves. You need to have them as a precondition for socialism to work otherwise you just repeat the 20th Century again. If it doesn't go through this stage, then democratic revolution must necessarily be a part of a socialist revolution.

Basically what Pickman's said, the above is not socialism it is a weird liberal idealism.
Rights don't stop the abuse and exploitation of the working class, in fact they often the means of that manifesting that exploitation.

What gets gains for the working class is its power and organisation, that may come about in various forms including elections, the creation of 'rights', etc but it is labour power that is the basis of socialism.

 

[The39thStep]

But some rights are required for socialism to work as well. If you do away with seperation of powers and legal protection of basic democratic rights after using them for the revolution (which is what I mean by liberal institutions), then all that will happen is the leadership will then abuse their power, make themselves impossible to remove, and then restore capitalism to benefit themselves. This is exactly what happened over the 20th Century.

Even if you envision some form of Council Communism or syndicalism, you still need to have separation of powers to ensure that elections are overseen fairly, and you still need to legally protect the right to free speech and assembly otherwise there is nothing to stop people in power - even if elected - from repressing criticism and critics of themselves. So democratic norms are a good in and of themselves. You need to have them as a precondition for socialism to work otherwise you just repeat the 20th Century again. If it doesn't go through this stage, then democratic revolution must necessarily be a part of a socialist revolution.

I think there are a number of different types of democratic structures that can make socialism or something like it work . I wouldn’t make a fetish of parliamentary democracy , although I would defend that until there was a better system on offer , but I would on the question of universal suffrage .

I want to go back to this notion that Ukraine should be supported because it’s more democratic than Russia . In my view it’s the fact that Russia is invading that is the key issue . If Russia was democratic and invading a less democratic Ukraine , I’d still be against the invasion . I didn't support Thatcher over the Falklands even though the Argentinians had a military dictatorship .

 

[bluescreen]

I think there are a number of different types of democratic structures that can make socialism or something like it work . I wouldn’t make a fetish of parliamentary democracy , although I would defend that until there was a better system on offer , but I would on the question of universal suffrage .

I want to go back to this notion that Ukraine should be supported because it’s more democratic than Russia . In my view it’s the fact that Russia is invading that is the key issue . If Russia was democratic and invading a less democratic Ukraine , I’d still be against the invasion . I didn't support Thatcher over the Falklands even though the Argentinians had a military dictatorship .

Why not, given that the people who actually lived there didn't want to be ruled by Argentina? Can't see the moral difference with Ukraine tbh.

Edit: Sorry - ignore the above, which will result in a ten page derail.

 

[StoneRoad]

I hope Ukraine starts escalating their counter offensive soon, so this thread can get back on topic, instead of all these mega boring off topic derails.

And, in the hope they can push back the Russians enough to bring this war to an end, and stop the pointless loss of lives on both sides.

According to the ISW map - the blue for liberated areas is spreading on the flanks of the Bakhmut salient.
Plus on some of the islands in the Dnipro delta.

 

[The39thStep]

I hope Ukraine starts escalating their counter offensive soon, so this thread can get back on topic, instead of all these mega boring off topic derails.

And, in the hope they can push back the Russians enough to bring this war to an end, and stop the pointless loss of lives on both sides.

I’ll get onto them , they’ll appreciate the uncomfortable situation they’ve put you in having to discuss politics .

 

[Ming]

Must be the same as or cheaper than a tomahawk which 20 years ago were iirc £1m a throw

This war…cough…sorry ‘special military operation’ has really brought home about how important the economic element is. Is the cost of a Javelin worth it for the price of the tank it’s destroying? Actually that may be why Russian stuff is so cheap and shit!!! Brilliant!!

 

[Ming]

They must go back to pre 2014 lines though. Talk about a huge strategic blunder not responding to that invasion…

 

[Pickman's model]

They must go back to pre 2014 lines though. Talk about a huge strategic blunder not responding to that invasion…

Everyone wants to go back to pre-2014 lines, just some more pre than others

 

[tim]

Everyone wants to go back to pre-2014 lines, just some more pre than others

Pre-1914 would please several of the interested parties, although probably not the Poles who'd opt for pre-1772.

 

[sleaterkinney]

I’ll get onto them , they’ll appreciate the uncomfortable situation they’ve put you in having to discuss politics .

There are plenty of other left wing circle jerk threads in p+p, we don’t need another one.

 

[The39thStep]

There are plenty of other left wing circle jerk threads in p+p, we don’t need another one.

Sorry, I forgot that a lot of this will be going over your head.

 

[Artaxerxes]

There are plenty of other left wing circle jerk threads in p+p, we don’t need another one.

“In this hour long video essay I will explain why the leftist cultural movement needs to support Ukraine and follow it up with a thousand word post. Its vital that we clarify everything”

“Hi guys, just popping into the Ukraine thread. What’s happened in Ukraine recently?”

“I don’t see why you need to know that”

 

[sleaterkinney]

Sorry, I forgot that a lot of this will be going over your head.

I’m not bothered about it, like most people.

 

[The39thStep]

I’m not bothered about it, like most people.

Fine . Let's leave it at that then. Can you post up some war news as Artaxerxes can't seem to locate any on any news channels or social media and relies entirely on this thread.

 

[Pickman's model]

There are plenty of other left wing circle jerk threads in p+p, we don’t need another one.

You're trying to have a rw circle jerk on this thread but you're on your tod

 

[Yossarian]

I thought it was a higher quality derail than usual and probably worthy of its own thread

 

[Artaxerxes]

I thought it was a higher quality derail than usual and probably worthy of its own thread

It certainly beats the dog pile half hour but I’m sure there are more useful places to get really into theory

 

[ska invita]

Fine . Let's leave it at that then. Can you post up some war news as Artaxerxes can't seem to locate any on any news channels or social media and relies entirely on this thread.

I can help... There's going to be a coalition of all the jets with victory by Xmas, and that's not even factoring in the superior meme advantage

 

[Elpenor]

The latest news is that middle aged men are still getting excited about tanks

 

[existentialist]

Sorry, I forgot that a lot of this will be going over your head.

It's certainly going over MY head. Because my head is occupied with things I give a shit about.

 

[Yossarian]

In Kyiv, meanwhile, authorities say all 18 missiles Russia fired at the city overnight were shot down, though some debris reportedly landed on the zoo

Ukraine war: Kyiv hit by 'exceptionally dense' missile and drone attack

It is the eighth time Ukraine's capital has been targeted by Russia so far this month.

www.bbc.com

 

[The39thStep]

It's certainly going over MY head. Because my head is occupied with things I give a shit about.

That's completely understandable. I think the same about some aspects of this thread

 

[The39thStep]

Following on about the psychological aspects of this war, here's the CIA trying to recruit informers in Russia ( does anyone know what the music is?)




Translation

 

[Pickman's model]

Following on about the psychological aspects of this war, here's the CIA trying to recruit informers in Russia ( does anyone know what the music is?)




Translation

i'm not sure that the americans have really got this information operations thing

 

[Sweet FA]

I hope Ukraine starts escalating their counter offensive soon, so this thread can get back on topic, instead of all these mega boring off topic derails.

"More war less jaw"

 

[cupid_stunt]

"More war less jaw"

Nice bit of selected quoting, you missed this bit -

And, in the hope they can push back the Russians enough to bring this war to an end, and stop the pointless loss of lives on both sides.

There's a whole forum covering Ukraine, and there's already threads covering the politics of it all, so it's not unreasonable to want this thread kept on topic.

 

[Pickman's model]

Nice bit of selected quoting, you missed this bit -

anyone would think quoting was not by definition selective