Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[a_chap]

121???

I think they need 121 thousand

 

[platinumsage]

theres no doubt "resources" are a factor in this war. it would be simplistic to believe only Russia was interested in this
i posted this a few weeks back (from here):

"QUOTE: "Of course, much depends on how the war pans out. If Putin can gain control of Ukraine, that opens up significant riches to be exploited. Ukraine is rich in natural resources, particularly in mineral deposits. It possesses the world’s largest reserves of commercial-grade iron ore – 30 billion tonnes of ore, or around one-fifth of the global total. It ranks second in terms of known natural gas reserves in Europe, which today remain largely untapped. Ukraine’s mostly flat geography and high-quality soil composition make the country a big regional agricultural player. The country is the world’s fifth-largest exporter of wheat and the largest exporter of seed oils like sunflower and rapeseed. Coal mining, chemicals, mechanical products (aircraft, turbines, locomotives and tractors) and shipbuilding are also important sectors of the Ukrainian economy.

All of this remains to be fully exploited. The EU and the US have also been drooling over the prospect of getting hold of these resources. As I recently showed,1 the Ukraine government plans to sell off huge tracts of land to foreign and domestic investors to develop. That could deliver huge dividends to whichever power controls the country. Either way, once the war is over and after thousands have been killed or injured, Ukraine’s people will see little benefit."

The notion that "either way...Ukraine’s people will see little benefit" creates a ridiculous equivalence between EU and Russian influence post-war, it's laughable. I'm sorry for the author that Ukraine won't become an independent communist state and he feels all other options are equally bad.

 

[YouSir]

The notion that "either way...Ukraine’s people will see little benefit" creates a ridiculous equivalence between EU and Russian influence post-war, it's laughable. I'm sorry for the author that Ukraine won't become an independent communist state and he feels all other options are equally bad.

They're talking specifically about resource control and extraction, which on both sides will involve Capitalists doing everything they can to monopolise profits and give nothing back. Political and social effects a re a different thing.

 

[LDC]

theres no doubt "resources" are a factor in this war. it would be simplistic to believe only Russia was interested in this
i posted this a few weeks back (from here):

"QUOTE: "Of course, much depends on how the war pans out. If Putin can gain control of Ukraine, that opens up significant riches to be exploited. Ukraine is rich in natural resources, particularly in mineral deposits. It possesses the world’s largest reserves of commercial-grade iron ore – 30 billion tonnes of ore, or around one-fifth of the global total. It ranks second in terms of known natural gas reserves in Europe, which today remain largely untapped. Ukraine’s mostly flat geography and high-quality soil composition make the country a big regional agricultural player. The country is the world’s fifth-largest exporter of wheat and the largest exporter of seed oils like sunflower and rapeseed. Coal mining, chemicals, mechanical products (aircraft, turbines, locomotives and tractors) and shipbuilding are also important sectors of the Ukrainian economy.

All of this remains to be fully exploited. The EU and the US have also been drooling over the prospect of getting hold of these resources. As I recently showed,1 the Ukraine government plans to sell off huge tracts of land to foreign and domestic investors to develop. That could deliver huge dividends to whichever power controls the country. Either way, once the war is over and after thousands have been killed or injured, Ukraine’s people will see little benefit."

Weekly Worker, ffs.

 

[cupid_stunt]

121???

I think they need 121 thousand

It's a bugger they are only single use, but I don't think they need 121,000 of them, the Russian's don't have enough targets for that number.

 

[platinumsage]

They're talking specifically about resource control and extraction, which on both sides will involve Capitalists doing everything they can to monopolise profits and give nothing back. Political and social effects a re a different thing.

Yes I'm sure Ukrainians will see equally little benefit from capitalism when under the EU's influence compared to Russian influence. It's the most facile analysis imaginable.

 

[tim]

Some of them could even be professional tennis players.

Probably not, as they will be able to fend of misiles with their racquets, although not as well as badminton players

 

[YouSir]

Yes I'm sure Ukrainians will see equally little benefit from capitalism when under the EU's influence compared to Russian influence.

Prior to the war Western corporations like Shell and BP owned stakes in, ran joint projects with and purchased from Russian corporations. Social and political integration into EU markets obviously has a massive effect but when Capitalists vie for rights to Ukrainian mineral resources not a one of them is going to do it with the benefit of the Ukrainian people in mind. In the (hopefully) unlikely event that Russia wins Western companies would be straight back in partnering with them the second sanctions eased.

 

[maomao]

A good parallel would be to compare how well the Nigerian people have done from their mineral wealth under capitalism.

 

[Supine]

Not just drones. Looks like heavy artillery is also being supplied.

 

[platinumsage]

A good parallel would be to compare how well the Nigerian people have done from their mineral wealth under capitalism.

Yeah Nigeria's plans to join the EU have accelerated now it is being invaded by Chad. Worst parallel ever.

Prior to the war Western corporations like Shell and BP owned stakes in, ran joint projects with and purchased from Russian corporations. Social and political integration into EU markets obviously has a massive effect but when Capitalists vie for rights to Ukrainian mineral resources not a one of them is going to do it with the benefit of the Ukrainian people in mind. In the (hopefully) unlikely event that Russia wins Western companies would be straight back in partnering with them the second sanctions eased.

It doesn't matter whether capitalists have the benefit of the Ukrainian people in mind, what matters is whether the Ukrainian people benefit. If you think they'd benefit just as little from EU development of natural resources as they would from Russian development of resources than there's no hope for you.

 

[A380]

theres no doubt "resources" are a factor in this war. it would be simplistic to believe only Russia was interested in this
i posted this a few weeks back (from here):

"QUOTE: "Of course, much depends on how the war pans out. If Putin can gain control of Ukraine, that opens up significant riches to be exploited. Ukraine is rich in natural resources, particularly in mineral deposits. It possesses the world’s largest reserves of commercial-grade iron ore – 30 billion tonnes of ore, or around one-fifth of the global total. It ranks second in terms of known natural gas reserves in Europe, which today remain largely untapped. Ukraine’s mostly flat geography and high-quality soil composition make the country a big regional agricultural player. The country is the world’s fifth-largest exporter of wheat and the largest exporter of seed oils like sunflower and rapeseed. Coal mining, chemicals, mechanical products (aircraft, turbines, locomotives and tractors) and shipbuilding are also important sectors of the Ukrainian economy.

All of this remains to be fully exploited. The EU and the US have also been drooling over the prospect of getting hold of these resources. As I recently showed,1 the Ukraine government plans to sell off huge tracts of land to foreign and domestic investors to develop. That could deliver huge dividends to whichever power controls the country. Either way, once the war is over and after thousands have been killed or injured, Ukraine’s people will see little benefit."

Gosh, I didn’t realise this death and destruction was all because Ursula Von Der Leyen covered a brake disk manufacture outside Livov…

 

[Kaka Tim]

Capitalists are always going to capital - but I would imagine that post war Ukraine will be recieving bucket loads of aid from US/EU/the west - they will want to bolster its stability and reduce its vulnerability as its now the front line in the revived cold-but-getting-hotter war against Russia. Similar to west Germany post ww2 - or Afghanistan . Seeing western support as merely a cynical path to asset stripping ignores the influence of geopolitical and ideological forces - and public opinion - its as facile as saying that the current war is being mainly driven by the profiteering of arms manufactures

 

[existentialist]

Putin now called for a halt to attacks on the steelworks and has instead said it should be ‘sealed up so that not even a fly could escape’. I guess he needs it relatively intact for whichever oligarch he gives it away to post-invasion, never mind the bad smell from the cellars. Grim.

Nah, I think he's realised (or been prevailed on to realise) that clearing the Ukrainians out is going to be costly and difficult.

As it is, they are effectively doing their job - keeping a significant chunk of Russian forces tied up trying to contain them. I can't imagine resupply of the defenders is possible, lovely at that would be. OTOH, if it is possible, I don't think anyone is going to be telling us...

 

[rekil]

Nu-Anteefa in Mariupol.

Spoiler

 

[bluescreen]

Nu-Anteefa in Mariupol.

Spoiler

It's gone now. What did it say?

 

[rekil]

It's gone now. What did it say?

It wasn't showing but it's there. Kadyrov's gang of murderers.

 

[YouSir]

Nu-Anteefa in Mariupol.

Spoiler

One day someone's going to end Kadyrov like they did his dad and not a tear will be shed anywhere on earth.

 

[Flavour]

That's definitely going to help fan the flames of the far right, that sort of stuff, and I think that's actually the intention. It's trolling/baiting

 

[belboid]

Yes I'm sure Ukrainians will see equally little benefit from capitalism when under the EU's influence compared to Russian influence. It's the most facile analysis imaginable.

Naah that’s the cretins going on about freedom b communism. The eu is a significant factor in this, them trying to impose the deep and comprehensive free trade agreement. That, pushed thru by the corrupt pro-eu oligarch poroshenko, saw yet another round of massive cuts and sell offs (guess who to!). Zelensky promised to renegotiate but completely failed which was why his popularity had fallen the floor.

The eu kill people for profit too, they just don’t use tanks to do it.

 

[nogojones]

theres no doubt "resources" are a factor in this war. it would be simplistic to believe only Russia was interested in this
i posted this a few weeks back (from here):

"QUOTE: "Of course, much depends on how the war pans out. If Putin can gain control of Ukraine, that opens up significant riches to be exploited. Ukraine is rich in natural resources, particularly in mineral deposits. It possesses the world’s largest reserves of commercial-grade iron ore – 30 billion tonnes of ore, or around one-fifth of the global total. It ranks second in terms of known natural gas reserves in Europe, which today remain largely untapped. Ukraine’s mostly flat geography and high-quality soil composition make the country a big regional agricultural player. The country is the world’s fifth-largest exporter of wheat and the largest exporter of seed oils like sunflower and rapeseed. Coal mining, chemicals, mechanical products (aircraft, turbines, locomotives and tractors) and shipbuilding are also important sectors of the Ukrainian economy.

All of this remains to be fully exploited. The EU and the US have also been drooling over the prospect of getting hold of these resources. As I recently showed,1 the Ukraine government plans to sell off huge tracts of land to foreign and domestic investors to develop. That could deliver huge dividends to whichever power controls the country. Either way, once the war is over and after thousands have been killed or injured, Ukraine’s people will see little benefit."

The resources are valuable for sure. The Ukrainian people see little personal benefit from them currently and I very much doubt they'll see anything in the future, unless they use this conflict to organise and fight for a better society afterwards. We didn't get the NHS post war because Nye Bevan was such a lovely chap, but because the ruling class were scared of our potential. There had been de-mob mutinies, even wartime strikes in core industries; pretty much all the working class had been weapons trained and there was mood for serious change.

This fucking over of the lower classes for resources isn't unique to Ukraine. What benefit did you get from North Sea oil and gas?

However life will be an awful lot shitter for Ukrainian people (and Russian people) should Russia win this and they still won't get what's theirs when it comes to the value of the resources they sit on.

 

[nogojones]

Weekly Worker, ffs.

Oh, come on. They're an unparalleled read when it comes to bitching about other small left wing groups.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

The eu kill people for profit too, they just don’t use tanks to do it.

This makes an enormous difference to those on the receiving end.

 

[frogwoman]

Ukraine: Russian Forces’ Trail of Death in Bucha

Russian forces committed a litany of apparent war crimes during their occupation of Bucha, a town about 30 kilometers northwest of Ukraine’s capital, Kyiv, from March 4 to 31, 2022.

www.hrw.org

 

[editor]

Ukraine: Russian Forces’ Trail of Death in Bucha

Russian forces committed a litany of apparent war crimes during their occupation of Bucha, a town about 30 kilometers northwest of Ukraine’s capital, Kyiv, from March 4 to 31, 2022.

www.hrw.org

Fucking hell that's a grim read. I can't even begin to imagine that the hate and anger that Ukrainians must have for Russia.

 

[belboid]

This makes an enormous difference to those on the receiving end.

Being starved and frozen to death or just shot. It ain’t that big a difference.

 

[Pickman's model]

Being starved and frozen to death or just shot. It ain’t that big a difference.

shot much better than starving imo

 

[Raheem]

Being starved and frozen to death or just shot. It ain’t that big a difference.

I dunno. Looks like there are some quite a big differences between Mariupol and, say, Gdansk at the moment, although I have to admit I am only going off pictures.

 

[The39thStep]

Naah that’s the cretins going on about freedom b communism. The eu is a significant factor in this, them trying to impose the deep and comprehensive free trade agreement. That, pushed thru by the corrupt pro-eu oligarch poroshenko, saw yet another round of massive cuts and sell offs (guess who to!). Zelensky promised to renegotiate but completely failed which was why his popularity had fallen the floor.

The eu kill people for profit too, they just don’t use tanks to do it.

Agree with the first para but think the last sentence spoils it tbh. A post war Ukraine will be heaving with money but it will come at a price for the working class with an agenda that pushes labour and collective rights further and further backwards.

 

[cupid_stunt]

It's been discussed that this is the likely plan, but I don't recall it being confirmed by any Russian official before, the plan does seem to include taking all of south Ukraine, link up to the Transnistria self-declared breakaway state, that's going to concern Moldova, which signed a formal application for EU membership soon after Russia invaded Ukraine.

The Interfax news agency reports the deputy commander of Russia’s central military district, Rustam Minnekayev, said it plans to take full control of Donbas and southern Ukraine as part of the second phase of the military operation.

And in a line that will be concerning to Chișinău, he is also reported to have said that control of Ukraine’s south will give Russia another gateway to Moldova’s breakaway region of Transnistria.

“Control over the south of Ukraine is another way to Transnistria, where there is also evidence that the Russian-speaking population is being oppressed,” Tass quoted Minnekayev as saying at a meeting in Russia’s central Sverdlovsk region. LINK